Ebnelson says: The Mars Society has a dream, and an honorable one: the manned exploration of Mars.

Barry says: Honorable? At what price eh? Contamination of life on Mars? For what purpose? To say humans went there? The Mars Society idea is 50 years premature - we have not even begun to explore Mars. Zubrin is convinced that Mars is devoid of life, even though he also insists that Martian microbes have already innoculated Earth. Strange position wouldn't you say? Read his words here:

http://www.planetary.org/html/news/opinions/zubrinresponse.html

Ebnelson says: Calling it a fantasy, in the context of your presentation as factually conclusive the evidence from the Viking Missions, is a misuse of the language.

Barry says: Ignoring scientific "evidence" for life on Mars for over 25 years is rediculous, I agree. There is no concensus yet that a manned mission to Mars is even possible given just the radiation hazard alone. Fantasy it remains.

And Ed Replies: No one ignored the evidence. I remember clearly reading about the ambiguous results at the time. The canard that some sort of neglective conspiracy has occurred is just wrong.
And now that the CO2 model is gaining evidentiary support, the likelihood of life on Mars is even more tenuous.

Ebnelson: I predicted a year ago that people like you would succeed in making Mars off limits to manned landings.

Barry: You mean scientists and other researchers who take the issue of life on Mars seriously? Arrogance and disregard for native life by the Spanish explorers also was the driving factor in their conquest of "the new world". How ironic that mentality still exists in our "modern society".

And Ed replies: No, the populist panic-mongering of complacency. Darn tootin' that mentality still exists. We can use a lot more of it, in the sense that if respect of potential microbes is going to veto our spirit, the hell with that kind of respect.
Of course we should carefully survey Mars first. We need to know if the CO2 calthrates are going to fizz or explode out of the soil. We need to know if some sort of bacteria-like life could have phagic properties, IF there is any life to worry about. The whole point of this critique is that you are setting a fear-based management system into place that will poison all efforts to go anywhere--even luna.

Ebnelson: I thought I was going to be proven wrong.
Now you are here using the time-worn playbook of the anti-nuke and other psuedo-science fear groups of forcing people to prove the unprovable, while maintaing control of the standards.

Barry says: Look at who some of the key members of ICAMSR are. Plus thousands of ICAMSR petitions have been signed from people all around the world. Yes people do care about Earth and Mars. Live with it.

And Ed Replies: I care very much, too. I refuse to have you define "caring" as "agreeing with your reactionary attitude."

Ebnelson says: If you do this right, you could get the Sierra Club or Greenpeace mailing list, and for a small fee use it to make yourself rich. Hurry! the market is low and if you buy now, you can get really rich.

Barry says: You are missing one important fact: ICAMSR, unlike the Mars Society does not sell anything or charge membership fees. It is Zubrin who sells his books and his books alone about colonies on Mars at Mars Society conventions and then charges every guest speaker and member a fee to attend. The Plywood Arctic Mars Research Station cost Mars Society supporters millions of dollars and those silly space suits, yet more cold cash. The Mars Society is starting to look rather like Elmer Gantry selling you a ticket to go to "heaven". The way I see it, the Mars Society is raking in the big bucks -- not ICAMSR, so take your cash arguments to Zubrin. If they are really interested in exploring Mars, why not instead invest their money into financing some "real" scientific instruments that will settle the issue of life on Mars instead of canvas play space suits? Or how about first setting up a scientific outpost on the Moon? The fact is, the possibility of life on Mars blows the whole manned mission scenario. We have no idea how valuable or dangerous Martian life could be in spite of Zubrins ranting. To risk irreversably contaminating Mars just to see human footprints or a US flag planeted by some Neil Armstrong wannabe, is neither honorable nor scientific. To destroy or contaminate any life forms already on Mars would be criminal to many proven microbiologists. Until the issue of life on Mars has been put to rest, the chances of a human mission getting funded to go to Mars has a zero chance of ever happening realistically.

And Ed replies: Since the fear mongers get the free press, that is called equal time. Zubrin is more than welcome to stand up against the reactionary forces, and if he can sell a couple of books to do it, more power.
And if you don't like the idea of living in the arctic or trying to see what at lesst some ofthe issues will be when we do finally over come the fear mongers, too bad.
respectfully,
Ed Nelson