BD wrote: Just remember one thing Chris -- Eby keeps starting these verbal bouts here on this bbs by insulting not only me but the scientists I associate with. He starts them every single time -- almost like it is a planned thing. Orders?

Chris writes: And how old are you? Orders? No, paranoia on your part.

BD wrote: So here we go....
From the New York Times - March 23, 2002, Saturday, Late Edition - Final
Life Inside Tall Tin Can in Utah Is All Mars
"...six recent pilgrims are practicing something even stranger
and more isolating -- living on Mars..."

"...They go outside in white canvas space suits trimmed in duct tape. Their helmets are made from plastic light fixtures and white bullet-shaped trash-can lids..."

"In their habitation module (the thing that looks like a silo), they sit with their laptops late into the cold desert night, typing up reports of simulated Mars disasters."

C'mon Chris! Trash can lid helmets? Duct taped spacesuits? Does this sort of stuff really capture your imagination? What about just sticking to Mars science?

Chris writes: First you take media writtingat face value. "trimmed in duct tape"..."plastic light fixtures " "what nonsense! I contend you don't have a clue what is Mars Science when it come to human exploration of the red planet. You haven't bothered to study the subject in anyway and have no degrees with the learning that would have been abtain with them. The backshell of the helmet is made out of an Umbra Grand Trashcan lid...durable, simple and cheap ... the visor is a high quality optical dome made for surveillance camera...would you be happier if we used fiberglass for the backshell? Duct tape is also used in space by STS and ISS astronauts in exactly the same way we use it...your point? The media are clueless or is it you?

BD wrote: Here are three things the MS can do instead of the stuff mentioned above:

1) Instead of spending all that cash on phoney Mars habitats and duct taped canvas space suits -- why not send your people to Antarctica and train them to do outdoor geology and astrobiology with the real "cold survivor" scientists already there? Mars isn't going to be anything like the Arctic. But Antarctica will difinelty give you a big hint. The habitat in Utah is useless to simulate any environment of Mars. No one beyond the fifth grade is going to buy this as real science.

Chris writes: Again you show how completely out of the knowledge loop you are. We aren't training people to do "outdoor" geology and the Antarctic would be a poor choice for doing it without a lot of melting happening first. Devon Island has biology similar to that some scientist expect we might find on Mars the Antarctic has ice fields. You simple don't seem to understand we are not trying to simulate Mars' actual environment. It would cost to much and be completely stupid and pointless. Utah is a nearly perfect analog environment for Mars just as Devon Island is. They each have different aspects that are featured. Dust and a forced water conservation at Utah with a somewhat similar geology and Devon Island has very simlar geology and morpology to the area around the Viking landers on Mars.

BD wrote: 2) Have some respect for planetary protection and why it is important to first examine the planet Mars for microbial life before sending humans and to see what effects any Martian life has on terrestrial ecosystems sequestered and tested in a module in Martian orbit.

Chris writes: The Mars Society is not a monolithic organization. What Zubrin or some other person in TMS thinks is no more uniform than it would be if they were in TPS. I think we should persume there is a degree of threat with anything coming from space and protect our enviroment as best we can. This doesn't mean I think we should prohibit bring extraterrestrial materials to Earth. Just be prudent in handling them.

BD wrote: 3) Invest in a real Mars Habitat module - complete with 95% CO2 atmosphere, trace amounts of water vapor, simulated dust storms, simulated Martian UV etc... Then I think the Mars SIMS would be respectable. As they are now, it appears like cheap props for a Roger Corman "B" science fiction movie.

Chris writes: This is a lunatic idea. It would be pointless and has no benefit other than draining bank accounts. You don't seem to understand the costs involved in what you suggest! If I had a room in my house with a 3 millibar pressure in it. I could change vast sums to universities to use it. Large Vacuum Chambers are not cheap nor do we have a need as yet for such a chamber.

I also don't believe you know what would be respectable or you wouldn't be spreading lies and using fake names. In science you gain respect by publishing. So only time will tell if we are respected... As for the media...some will always laugh ... even if we somehow landed people on Mars...

--Chris Vancil