Bowser - The abuses were encouraged at the highest levels of the Administration.

Tony - "Crapping all over the Geneva Convention does not help, but your phrasing suggest that the administartion actively encouraged the use of numiliation, degradation and torture.
"Got proof? I'll wait for an investigation thank you."

Bowser reply - The way it's done is to do away with controls (Geneva Convention, for one) while demanding results. It's what Nixon did that resulted in Watergate.

Bowser - There was an active coverup in the form of ignoring credible reports.

Tony - "Again, got proof? I think it was more incompetence than any thing else, coupled with a tendency to stick one's head in the sand and shout LALALALA at the first sign of bad news. (Reminds me of certain posters here, both left and right)"

Bowser reply - Too many citations. Colin Powell brought the allegations to Rumsfeld, nothing happened. Taguba wrote a report, no one claimed to have read it. Myers claimed to not know about the report or pictures, and STILL called CBS and asked them to hold it story. Why, if not trying to maintain the coverup?

Bowser - There were perpetrated mostly upon innocent people.

Tony - "This claim seems to be based on extrapolation from the 90% innocent detainees report from the RC. This is not self-evident by a long shot."

Bowser reply - 40,000 prisoners, 600 charged. And the Red Cross was there.

Bowser - And the Bush Administration will try to screw some poor enlisted personnel to the wall in an attempt to cover their own asses.

Tony - "Possibly, but this is suppostion rather than hard fact.
But the guys who actually carried out the abuses and their superiors who condoned it (when proven) deserve to be screwed, and royally. You might want to rephrase this sentence. You sound like they were just innocent parties......."

Bowser reply - It's started. With a great deal of fanfare the first enlisted person will be court martialled May 19th.

Tony - "This is why you drive people up the wall. Not because you make such brilliant arguments that cannot be refuted, but coz you make stuff up, extrapolate, suppose and construe and then present it as fact."

Bowser reply - I have to admit to a germ of truth in that statement. On my limited behalf, I'd say that in my estimation I accept what a reasonable and prudent man would believe and do not value denials which could only remotely be true.

Every person should evaluate the information which comes their way. And make judgements upon that in a rational, reasoned manner.

For instance. Rumsfeld and Bush ignored reports and warnings from a number of sources. Did nothing. Myers stalled the CBS story. And then all express outrage only after pictures which had been available to them long before became public.

I'll call that an attempt at a coverup. Extrapolation, or logical? Or both? Whatever, I'll stand by it.

And I try to leave the clinging to the thinnest thread of excuses at the expense of the cable of information to others.

Arf