that the americans there are always right and whatever they did was just. Thats precisely how war-crimes get justified by the masses. Read a history of the rise of Nazi Germany.

Furthermore, I don't see how any of us can justify americans behaving as torturing animals. We can not win this war by behaving like the enemy. In WWII we understood that if we were to be the 'good guys' in the fight, we had to pony up the price that came with that- that means that we didn't just trade our ethics away when it was convinient or when it would shave a few casualties off 'our side'. The only way to win this war is to prove to everyone that we are not the bad guys and that we are better than those who seek to trample us down into the muck.

Beyond all of that- if our New Cause for War in Iraq was to bring liberty and democracy, there is simply no way we can act like this without signing our own 'victory' away.

That someone else has behaved like a vile animal is no excuse to treat that person like a vile animal. Even Nazis require fair trials- not because of what they deserve, but because of what we should demand from ourselves. Rights are not something 'given' people, so we don't 'give' rights to our enemies. We demand from our society and our selves a certain invioable fundamental respect for humans, regardless of what they deserve or not, and regardless if they themselves recognize those rights or not.

While I will not endorse or use the rhetoric that my brother uses, I will point out that these things should not have to be explained to an American citizen. These things are the foundation of our country. Now before you start up the old Saw of 'coddling terrorists' and 'these people don't understand' and 'win the game by playing by their own rules', let me say don't bother. You should know these things already, these things are what it means to be an american, and let me employ the saw myself: if you don't want to live by these principles, get the hell out of this country[*]

Again, I can't believe this has to be explained to adults.

Davin :.

* I can see why you right wingers use this alot, it sort of feels good to say!