but it is totally naive to raise the issue of torture, etc. unless you focus on the stupidity of getting caught. Governments will, and always have, used unsavory techniques to accomplish their ends. This include the current administration.

The Abu Ghraib incident is the issue that drives your comments. It was not the actions of black ops that continue to occur undiscovered to this very day.

When individuals outside the intelligence venue start mistreating prisoners, they are war criminals and anyone up the line of authority that allowed it to happen is guilty of gross stupidity and possible prosecution.

How high the responsibility goes, in the absence of direct orders from the top, is always a question. I doubt that Cheney thought the Abu Ghraib was just an unfortunate exposure of people following his orders. I suspect his reaction was outrage that it was allowed to happen, because it was stupid and served no useful purpose. He might not have felt the disgust that many felt but he was just as angry at the perpetrators.

None of our sins rise to the level of genocide like the "final solution" where an apparatus was put in place by the highest level of government and staffed by thousands of subordinates from command to the lowest levels.

Bottom line, don't be naive and before you take it all the way to the top, make sure your your own house is in order.

I know you are a realist ER, but I wonder about people who fantasize a world where everybody plays nice.