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Re: New Additions to "White Mars" website

Thanks for the links! Quite startling if true. You assert that these flows are *currently* active and are due to *annual* thawing of CO2 ice. If as you say the flows are occurring at -125C that would be strong evidence in favor of your theory. However, we do know from TES measurements that temps at these sites can exceed 0 degrees C. How do you argue that the flows couldn't have occurred at these times?

A new report to be published in January in Science argues that the Malin/Edgett flows were/are due to melting water ice during periods of high obliquity:

Formation of Recent Martian Debris Flows by Melting of Near-Surface Ground Ice at High Obliquity
F. Costard, F. Forget, N. Mangold, J. P. Peulvast
Science, November 30, 2001
"The observation of small gullies associated with recent surface run-
off on Mars has renewed the question of liquid water stability at the
surface of Mars. The gullies could be formed by groundwater seepage from underground aquifers, however, observations of gullies originating from isolated peaks and dune crests question this
scenario. We show that these landforms may result from the melting of liquid water in the top few meters of the martian subsurface at high obliquity. Our conclusions are based on the analogy between the martian gullies and terrestrial debris flows observed in Greenland and numerical simulations that show above-freezing temperatures can occur at high obliquities in the near-surface of Mars, and that such temperatures are only predicted at latitudes and for slope orientations corresponding to where the gullies have been observed on Mars."
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/1066698 [abstract]

I had wondered if there were a correlation between slope angle and latitude for the gullies, which would iimply solar heating was
involved in their formation. Judging from the abstract, perhaps the
authors observed such a correlation.

I haven't read this paper yet but judging from this abstract and
other preliminary reports by the authors they seem to be suggesting both surface and subsurface melting due to solar heating could explain the formation of the gullies.

Other reports by the authors:

RECENT SURFACE RUNOFF ON MARS : COMPARISON WITH TERRESTRIAL ANALOGS AND CLIMATIC IMPLICATIONS
"The analogy with debris flows in Greenland suggests that many
Martian runoff could be explained by the presence of liquid water
only in the first meters of the subsurface. However liquid water is
not stable at the surface because of the low pressure and
temperatures. Nevertheless recent climate changes might have changed these conditions. Indeed obliquity of more than 40° would increase both maximal temperatures in polar regions and atmospheric pressure due to CO2 sublimation."
http://fototek.geol.u-psud.fr/~mangold/documents/net01.htm

DEBRIS FLOWS ON MARS: COMPARISON WITH TERRESTRIAL ANALOGS.
Conference on the Geophysical Detection of Subsurface Water on Mars (2001)
"Their characteristics are similar to those of the
Martian debris flows [8]. Seasonal snow covers occur
in the alcoves. Interstitial ice is found within the soil. It
occurs under the surface and can be seen to a depth of
several meters. These landforms all result from surface
processes due to snow melting and permafrost melting
near the surface [8].
"Stability of liquid water and climatic implications.
The comparison between Martian and terrestrial
landforms leads to the conclusion that surface processes
could explain many of the described features.
Such processes imply that liquid water can appear in
the first meters of the Martian subsurface."
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/geomars2001/pdf/7017.pdf

Note also that the recent report also in Science suggesting a continuing trend of CO2 sublimation from the polar ice caps raises the possibility that within 10,000 years there could have been sufficient atmospheric pressure to allow the flows to be carved by liquid water:

Red Planet Warming
Images Show Mars' Ice Caps Are Melting Fast
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DailyNews/mars011207.html

Bob Clark

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