>As with Daniel below

that should read something like "as Daniel mentioned, this will not be convincing to everyone" .. ie. not that I disagree with the post, but only that it won't sway those with preset opposing opinions.

(- just in case of any misunderstanding ..)

I understand the point you make (& your sympathies) - basically Israel as a colonial-settler state - but also agree with the post, that the dispossessed and the refugees were used as pawns by neighbouring Arab states to artificially prolong the conflict.

There are many reasons, which the post outlines, why this should be so - the economic & strategic threat to these states of the presence of a viable democratic state in their midst; and also the cultural/religious objection to a Jewish presence. The analogy with the US/Native American (similarly, Australia/Aborigines) is not complete since there *is* a continuing, thousands-of-years lineage of Jewish population in that area. It's not a simple picture of foreign invaders/settlers brutally kicking the natives off their land.

Maybe your viewpoint is valid insofar as Israel was "artificially" created by Western imperial powers, for their own strategic reasons, and also as Zionism originated as a European-Jewish ideology - ie. non-indigenous to Palestine. I think the fruits of this do show in the present-day crucial involvement of big powers in the area, and also in discrimination by say, Ashkenazism against Sephardim (boy, do the Sephardim ever carry a chip on their shoulders ..)

But that viewpoint ignores all the other dimensions like the *unbroken* link of Jews with that land, the conflict being artificially prolonged by Arab states, and the critical, central religious importance of Israel to Jews for thousands of years. Israel's secular, western-type (materialist) society also tends to obscure these important truths.

For a long time I held strong sympathies with the struggles of all oppressed nationalities. But that was when a 'struggle' meant a mass-organized movement - eg demonstrations, strikes, etc. When it became terrorism, I got off that merry-go-round. No longer are the Palestinians just 'stones against tanks'. What their 'struggle' has become made me reconsider their very basic position and grievances. Yes, I know the Israelis inflict injustices on the Palestinians, and that there is a massive unsolved dispossession problem. I also believe that Israel targets the 'militants' (=terrorists) very carefully, not at all like the 'ethnic cleansing' which you accept. If your orthodox Jewish friends have told you that they believe in ethnic cleansing, it would be for only one reason: that the experience of many wars, and of everyday terrorism, taught them that the Arab states, and the Palestinian population, WANT THEM DEAD. Their extreme position - which I do *not* personally share - shows they have been totally forced into a corner. Why shouldn't you understand that as well? .. It shouldn't be hard for anyone who already 'understands' blowing civilian adults and children to pieces because of 'oppression', as many people seem to (although that may not be your own position, I don't know).

PS I may not be able to respond again for a day or so