- The widespread hostility of radical Islam towards the United States long precedes George W. Bush. It precedes Clinton as well.

- The program of undertaking terrorist attacks against Americans is also many years in the making. The 9/11 attacks were being planned while Clinton was still President. And I readily concede that there is nothing he realistically could have done about it. If we could make bin Laden disappear this minute, does anyone think terrorism would go away? A corollary that many conservatives ignore: If Clinton HAD accepted bin Laden on that silver platter, does anyone think terrorism would have gone away? Or that the 9/11 attacks wouldn't have been carried out by someone else?

- If we had never even come close to Iraq, we would still have troops overseas under attack. We would still be trying to avoid civilian deaths while prying out Taliban/insurgents/whatever from villages and cities in Afghanistan and whatever other nations in the Middle East and Africa the terrorists hide in. Every shithead from Iran currently shooting at us in Iraq would be shooting at us in Afghanistan. The only small benefit would be that the Syrians wouldn't be in it as easily, since they can't just stream across the border like they're doing now.

- Almost everyone currently marching against Iraq would be marching--again--against the Imperial Occupation of Afghanistan. The only reason you don't see it now has nothing to do with principle, just that Iraq makes a better target for the Left. You think I don't remember the comments here back in 2001?

- Ansar al Islam would still be based in Northern Iraq. What would they be doing while our troops were fighting in Afghanistan? What would be going on in Pakistan? How about Iran? How about those African nations where the Islamists are setting up shop?

Are you even aware of the troops we have in Yemen?

There would still be coffins coming home.

Or to put it bluntly, by your definition it would still be a goddam quagmire. And nothing would change if French troops were getting their vehicles blown out from under them right next to us.

And that is just assuming that Saddam just takes up knitting for the next ten years, under the watchful eye of the microcephalic U.N. inspectors.

If this war can't be "won," should we just surrender?

How DO you fight terrorism if you don't like war?