Man, I should be charging $50 per hour here, but

Chris wrote: "The Mariner 4 showed a Moon like Mars"

and there were 3 teams looking at manned Mars missions in 1964, and the contracts had been let for completion in 1967, but then Johnson allowed the manned Mars efforts to die...

Chris wrote: "and then we sent two more probes (Mariner 6-7) and they again showed a Moon like Mars"

and then Nixon turned down the request by Agnew and the other manned Mars "enthusiasts" for a manned flight to Mars

Chris wrote: "and then we sent an orbiter (Mariner 9) and it showed all these channels and volcanos and more craters"

and then the Congress shut down the program to develop the nuclear engine for manned Mars flight

"and then we sent two landers and two orbiters (Viking) all within twelve years from 1964 to the Vikings..."

instead of sending men.

EP wrote: ....and then we entirely stopped sending probes to Mars for more than two decades, until people forgot what a worthless rock Mars really is.

Chris writes: "Try 16 years between launches and about 10 years between ends and beginnings Mars Observer launched September 1992"

Yes, a probe was sent to orbit Mars, because no one wanted another close up look at the surface of Mars, one delivered by a lander - it would stop them from bs'ing about what a wonderful place Mars is.

Chris wrote: "You have a very low opinion of your fellow humans and their ability to remember and think."

You're over-generalizing in a desperate appeal for support. I have a very low opinion of Mars Nuts and their ability to remember and think.

EP wrote: It was Dan Goldin's leadership, and nothing else, which set all of the current Mars probes in motion, the very same man who Cowing hysterically attacked for several years...

Chris writes: "All this tells me is your lack of knowledge of history and how NASA works."

once again, denial

Chris wrote: "Viking's lack of clear findings concerning life had a profound chilling effect on Mars projects funding."

It was all over when Mariner 4 showed neither Princess Thuria nor giant squids - the Viking images of Mars' surface just drove the last nail in an already filled coffin.

Chris wrote: "Mars Observer was designed and built before Goldin took his post."

finally Chris is correct about something - now if he only understood the long lead times on these projects, and when they were actually started.

Chris wrote: "It's loss strongly influenced his view of NASA.

Goldin's views on aerospace probject management and technologies were already pretty much in place long before this.

Chris wrote: "He found himself under the gun for a failure he had nothing to do with.

Not really.

Chris wrote: "Thus, Faster, Better and Cheaper came in to being."

Actually, FBC had been under development for some time.

Chris wrote: "Mars became one of his focuses not the only focus."

While true he had many focuses, Goldin started his career as an engineer on nuclear engines for manned Mars flight, and his long term strategic plan for NASA focused on manned flight to Marsr

Chris wrote: "I don't care what Cowing did and it isn't germane to the topic."

this comment pretty much speaks for itself, needing no reply on my part...

I wrote: "During this time period dozens of plans were drafted for manned mission to Mars"

EP wrote: ... at ever decreasing dollar amounts, and all of them less fully engineered than the earlier plans had been.

Chris writes: "What a load of BS! Do some researched you dipstick before shoveling this crap my way! "

Once again, when argument fails, we have the use of insults

Chris wrote: "These plans were all over the place in costs and some earlier plans were extremely vague about all kinds of system requirements simple because they didn't have a clue how much stuff they would need."

Not in 1964.

Chris wrote: "The most expensive plan is one of the most recent ones"

which does not speak to the question of the level of engineering detail

Chris wrote: "and the most detailed plan is the current NASA Reference mission."

In terms of engineering man-hours, it is quite easy to show that the NASA Reference mission has limited engineering detail in comparison with earlier efforts.

Chris wrote: "I've studied them you obviously have not!"
"Look you are uninformed and stupid go away!"

EP wrote: What one needs to appreciate when dealing with the Mars Nuts is that they are so obsessed with manned Mars flight that their perception is hopelessly warped. Thus the "facts" which they base any logical argument on may bear little relationship to reality, and any argument which proceeds from a "real" basis will make little sense to them.

Chris wrote:"You don't answer half the question I ask. Mister Expert Ed: How much weight should a ideal Mars Suit be?"

In the fantasy world some people live in, Mars suits are massless.

In the real world, they are are too heavy to be comfortably worn for long periods.

ep

Don't over generalize.

EP wrote: It was Dan Goldin's leadership, and nothing else, which set all of the current Mars probes in motion, the very same man who Cowing hysterically attacked for several years...

Chris writes: All this tells me is your lack of knowledge of history and how NASA works. Viking's lack of clear findings concerning life had a profound chilling effect on Mars projects funding. Mars Observer was designed and built before Goldin took his post. It's loss strongly influenced his view of NASA. He found himself under the gun for a failure he had nothing to do with. Thus, Faster, Better and Cheaper came in to being. Mars became one of his focuses not the only focus. I don't care what Cowing did and it isn't germane to the topic.

I wrote: "During this time period dozens of plans were drafted for manned mission to Mars"

EP wrote: ... at ever decreasing dollar amounts, and all of them less fully engineered than the earlier plans had been.

Chris writes: What a load of BS! Do some researched you dipstick before shoveling this crap my way! These plans where all over the place in costs and some earlier plans were extremely vague about all kinds of system requirements simple because they didn't have a clue how much stuff they would need. The most expensive plan is one of the most recent ones and the most detailed plan is the current NASA Reference mission. I've studied them you obviously have not! Look you are uninformed and stupid go away!

EP wrote: What one needs to appreciate when dealing with the Mars Nuts is that they are so obsessed with manned Mars flight that their perception is hopelessly warped. Thus the "facts" which they base any logical argument on may bear little relationship to reality, and any argument which proceeds from a "real" basis will make little sense to them.

Chris writes: Gees, what an arrogant nut you are! Right, put some numbers to your claims about funding and polls, then come back. All people have to do is read the text I link to or read NASA's history if they care to check my facts. As for your "reality" I'm pretty sure most people here know when a guy is dodging and weaving, Ed! You don't answer half the question I ask. Mister Expert Ed: How much weight should a ideal Mars Suit be?

--Chris Vancil