Davin wrote: "So what, RobVG. Anyone with half a brain new the up-front war would be short. I didn't argue against this fact.
"

RobVG replied: "While your statement is true, It leaves some (on your side) here with less than half of a brain"

I only know of one regular and one occasional who really went into the "Were stalled! all is lost! trench warfare!" Thing. Everyone was thinking emotionally at that point, its reasonable to excuse them, but you are correct in that it DOES say something about their reasoning, and I have taken everything they have said since with a grain of salt.

Davin wrote: "This is absolute bullshit. If you think this way, then you have never read what i had to say"

RobVG replied:"I've read a lot of what you've had to say. In fact, I spent some time reading pre-war posts from everyone tonight and it was interesting seeing some people like myself struggling with their ideologies. In actuality I was trying to find some choice words I could make you eat- Non found.

My point was that before the war, you seemed to have based your opinions on the assumption that you knew more than the US Gov did when it came to intelligence."

Several points here Rob:

1) It is fundamental in true American political ideology and just plain good thinking to ALWAYS question what your government says.

2) I don't have my 'AAI tutorial' or my 'MKK/MKO' review links laying around on this computer- but the point is that I never thought I new more 'intelligence' than the US gov't, its just that THEIR reporting of their 'intelligence' was simply unbelievable in the face of what I was finding out about the political, ethnic and religious geography of the area. It contradicted DECADES of State-Department whitepaper, scholarly and journalistic sources. Smoking guns and 'great scores' exist in Intelligence- this is for sure, but you are NEVER going to find 'Great Scores' that contradict everything else known- name one in modern history.

On the contrary, the WMD were, in part 'believable' (WRT chem and limited Bio, but not Nuke), So I never even looked into those claims.

RobVG wrote: "In actuality I was trying to find some choice words I could make you eat- Non found.
"

I have said this before: I don't form my views in a vacuum, I research and I delay judgement as long as reason permits. I did not even take a stance on this war until AFTER the Powell presentation- back check that if you want, its true. I did not take the WMD=Yetiology stance until at least a month AFTER the war, check up if you want, its true.

RobVG wrote: "Anyway, I didn't intend my post to be a full fledged insult. I was just annoyed because...simply with the passage of time your position grows stronger. "

Well, I admit to being sensitive- but recall, I have been called everything from a coward, to morally deficient, to an idiot, to a snob to a demagogue to someone who glories in the death of my own soldiers.(add also arrogant, asshole, etc too) for voicing my stance here and arguing it without backing down. Most of the liberals on this bord have experienced that as well. By this point, I bet you would be pretty touchy on the insult thing.

As to it being annoying that my position grows stronger. I can't exactly say I'm sorry for that. ;-)

Best, Rob.

Davin L.

PS: And the best possible outcome, the only saving grace, for this country and its political and global position would have been to march into Iraq and find mountains of WMD, scads of terrorists and a whole set of battle plans for using both on america. I wish we had found that, frankly, no matter what my opinion on this war. We wouldn't be in this disgusting moldering pile of political shit if we had, and our position in the world would not be as worthless as it is now.