Barry wrote: I am not here to debate with you any longer. You are not interested in a real debate. You only want your views posted as evidenced by Mark Eby's comment "Look's like we finally found the secret to chase off Barry". So this then is your real intent, to prevent me and others who are onto your "Man on Mars club", from posting links, papers and abstracts which show human exploration of Mars is not possible now. In other words you don't want anyone to rain on your party.

Chris writes: It is so much easier to marginalize folks when you try to make them appear as a monolithic organization, but Tom Gunn does appear to be a TMS member in "good standing" (not that you checked this before you posted yesterday). His views are not Zubrin's yet his is a member in good standing. Please explain how this works? Barry, you are showing your paranoia again, Mark was wondering why you disappeared is all. Exactly how would we stop you from cutting and pasted here?

Barry wrote: So I am only going to post relevant space news and information about astrobiology and planetary protection themes to help balance the views on this bbs. Let the readers decide for themselves if the link or news is important.

Chris writes: Fine that is why the board is here. It use to be that Alex would post stuff like you have, but Ed burned him out (I suspect) and we wont see him for a while. I think that you hope to scare the another scientist away with your "attacks" on him. But frankly I don't think you understand Nick very well if that is the case.

Barry wrote: I am not really interested in the Mars Society or people like you who only have one agenda -- to sell memberships to the Mars Society and to sell Zubrin's books. Everything you guys do involves money.

Chris writes: You make these claims many times, but provide no evidence and of coarse we note you only make these claims here. Why not do an exposé on TMS and how it is swindling money from folks in a newspaper or magazine? My lawyer says I would have an excellent case against you if you did. Is that why? Exactly what doesn't in someway involve money. Are you suggesting we don't pay for things or peoples work? Which reminds me. We have volunteers and they do it for free.

Barry wrote: In my view there is no purpose for the Mars Society other than to have another type of fan club -- is this case a fan club for colonies of human beings on Mars. Even if the Mars Society had more members than it does (last convention it had only 800 or so showing up), you are never going to be able to fund a mission to Mars. So what's the point of it if not money? COSPAR, NASA and the ESA would never let a privately funded mission go to Mars because of the forward and back contamination hazard even if Bill Gates himself decided to use all his money to build a spaceship and go to Mars.

Chris writes: So is this your view on the Planetary Society, the National Space Society and the Space Studies Institute? So you don't understand us and your only understanding is money? People need money thus it's all about money? That is very very bad logic. Learn your "enemies" before taking them on. I wouldn't bet the issues you imagine to exist do in fact exist.

Barry wrote: The real Mars Exploration organization is NASA, and until NASA decides to send humans to Mars, it will never happen, unless of course the Chinese decide to do it first. But even that is fifty to a hundred years away in our war dominated society.

Chris writes: Yes, well check the list of members of the Mars Society Barry...NASA Chief Scientist Administrator was a speaker at our last convention. You keep writing 50 to a 100 years away like somehow chanting it will make it so...

Barry wrote: I am all for exploration of Mars with robots as I have told you a thousand times, and I do not see any need to send humans on a dangerous trip to Mars in the near future.

Chris writes: A thousand times? Where? You don't get it. The very fact it is dangerous is why we will go.

Barry wrote: If you and your Mars Society thinks "pretending" to be spacemen on Mars in Utah is a fun thing to do, then go off, put on your duct tape and canvas space suits and by all means have fun. It is not serious Mars research. NASA, the people with the real spacesuits, know for a fact the technology to keep humans in good health for a 6 month trip to Mars does not yet exist.

Chris writes: I think I've in fact proven our simulations are serious Mars research done by NASA scientists and other Ph.D. scientists who publish papers on the various sciences and Human Factors work they are doing there. That you don't get it and seemingly will never get is just plain sad. I thought it was Ed's province to make wild claims without proof. Cosmonauts have lived in orbit for as long as 6 months and Astronauts for almost as long. You don't seem to get engineering or trust it. Maybe that is why you think Popnecker somehow relates and that you just don't get Human Factors.

Barry wrote: This will be my standard cut and paste response to all your posts.

Chris writes: Fine till Robert gets tired of you wasting bandwidth, cutting and pasting all the time. I will try to be fresh and original in my reply each time.