But I'll finish this out..

"no matter how disconnected your view may be from reality. That's up to you. You can hope that mass murderers like Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Saddam, and their like will suddenly decide to be nice if only we're nice to them, but history suggests otherwise."

Nowhere did I say that Hitler had to be tolerated. In fact just the opposite. go back and read what I said about WWII.

"Human nature is what it is. We're good, bad, sometimes nice and sometimes evil. For all our claimed sophistication, inside we're little different from the cavemen who bashed each other with rocks. Failure to acknowledge the reality of human nature is why every utopian fantasy has failed up to and including communism. People will act in what they perceive as their own best interests despite all imploring them to act in the good of the collective. In the end, history has repeatedly shown that those imploring everyone to sacriface for the good of the collective have ended up living rather better than everyone else, hence Orwell's line from "Animal Farm", "All animals are equal, only some are more equal than others.""

Yes, we are what we are, and not what we were. We are not squatting in the cave, but landing rovers on Mars and voting in free elections. I operate under no utopian claims, nor advocate any. But a simple fact is that as long as we turn to war as a quick and immediate tool of foreign policy (and not even JUST in self defense!), we will certainly never be rid of it. Just because we hav 'always' had war does not mean that it is necessary or impossible. It might be, it likely is, but we will never know if we are actively expanding the conditions under which we go to war

"Sickness is bad. It's icky and people suffer. Should we outlaw doctors or do we work to improve medical care? Crime is bad. Should we outlaw cops or try to protect the honest from those who aren't? Likewise, war is bad. No, it's beyond bad, it's among the very worst things that humans do to one another. Should we sit around the campfire, holding hands and chanting "Kum by Yah", or should we work to protect ourselves from those who wish us harm?"

In your attempt to trivialize what I had to say into some re-hgash of 60'd neo-utopianism, the point went zinging by your head (or pinging off it) at hyper-sonic velocities.

Of course we don't outlaw doctors because sickness is awful- quite the opposite, we seek permenent cures and the eradication of disease. Of course we don't outlaw cops becuase crime is horrible, but we don't stop seeking to improve law and prevent crime, yes?

Show me where I indulge in 'Kum by yah' fantasy? ah- you would rather misconstrue to get a 'gotcha' than listen to what I have to say?

"Today's reality is that there are extremists out there who want to make the carnage of 9-11 look like a Girl Scout cookout. They want to kill and they aren't really particular who gets in the way, including innocent Muslims caught in the area."

And where do I deny the reality of this statement, eh Larry?

We can "try to understand why they hate us", but the simple answer is because we don't want to live under their warped view of Islam. That makes us the enemy and it isn't just Americans."

Hmmm, but maybe we can figure out how to head off nutcases like this before they blossom? And how is advocating this Naive and disconnected from reality?

Davin L.