I don't have a problem with your point of view.
Even your "unobtanium" was funny. But you did go about flaming me and shooting the whole thing down as irrational, so here we go.

My god Lindy... are you pathological in your need to play the wounded party? You posted on FLAME. Big white letters, upper right... hard to miss. What the F do you think I would do? Fold you an Oragami rose and thank you for your contribution to a rational society?

You bring up questions that most people use to dismiss this phenomena. But I beg to differ that large scale dramatic operations CANNOT be carried out because "thousands of people would need to be paid off the books".
A simple policy of non-disclosure signed by airline employees, mechanics (especailly if they were MILITARY contractors), could easily keep anything secret, especially if it was an environmental project run by the Dept. of Agriculture (or some such).

Okay, first off- Simple non disclosures can't keep things like TIA (Total Information Awareness) secret. or the Telecomm Wire-taps that circumvented FISA. They can't (or rather didn't) keep things like Stealth fighters secret during the cold war (janes and others had full descriptions of the whole project published long before Gulf War I). They can't keep even details of our Nuclear Warheads secret. Your two 'especially' clauses DO NOT FOLLOW. Why would a military contractor NDA work in this case where there are dozens of whistle blowers on dozens of other cases? Why would an environmental project run out of the Dept. of Agriculture be more secret than any other governmental arm. Hell- I grew up in an Aggie state and went to an Aggie college. Dept. of Ag. folks couldn't keep what they had for dinner last night secret. They are literally the Farmer next Door sort of folks. Not exactly subtle and nefarious men in black suits.

Your entire 'point' there was stupid. Just plain stupid. It wasn't even a point. Just a bunch of ramble.

Let's look at the MILLIONS of Jews that were being burned or gassed in ovens right under the noses of everyday Germans. People knew something wasn't right, but nobody interfered. And HOW many years did that go on? That was a massive conspiracy.

Apples and Oranges, Lindy. What was going on in the death camps wasn't a secret. Everyone who had eyes and could read knew what was going on. It happened in plain sight. The German people simply did not want to see. It wasn't even a 'conspiracy'. It was an operation of mass production with Murder as the product, with a paper trail and its actions completely out in the open. The only conspiracy was a conspiracy of silence and looking the other way on the part of German citizens.

How about the development of some of our advanced aircraft, that were designed, built and flown within a time frame of 20 years without the general public knowing about it?

More bullshit. Janes Defense Had most of our 'black' projects pegged and even sketched long before our government came clean. Beyond that, you are talking about around the clock operations using tens of thousands of airplanes and possibly hundreds of thousands of personnel. Where, Lindy, is the GIGANTIC FUCKING FLEET of aircraft? Where, Lindy, is the Army of participants? Where, Lindy, is the enormous Budget? Where, Lindy, are the tens of thousands if not millions of tonnes of particulates? Absence of evidence is not evidence. Again. Bullshit.

Don't tell me large scale operations can't be conducted by denial, forced submission or extra rewards on that paycheck.

Repeat after me: Absence of Evidence is not Evidence! Put up evidence, or shut up.

I also have mentioned here many times that I KNEW we were going into Iraq around St. Patricks's Day five months before we did. Even while GWB was on TV denying we wee NOT going to attack them.

Lindy, it was clear to anyone that we were going to war a full year or more before we went to war. It was a war looking for an excuse.

The military had amassed it's resources, drew up it's plan and put them all in motion six months before anyone even knew of it. And how? Secrecy and denial. I found out about because someone I knew...knew Tommy Franks' attache`. So your argument doesn't stand up. PERIOD.

Aside from your assertion that this contradicts my 'argument', it doesn't. (In fact, I am refuting your points, not setting forth an argument... God! You don;t even understand the basics of rhetoric, much less common sense!)

How does being right about the Obvious make my refutation of your absurd claims 'not stand up'? There are no dots here to connect Lindy.

Have you followed anything about the HAARP Project this past decade?

Sure. So what?

Have you followed the research on ELF the past 30 years?

Sure, so what? are you going to actually claim that Extremely Low Frequencies in the <30 Hz range are going to alter the climate or be able to agitate microscopic particles in the air? Seriously- you answer my calling your claims bullshit by not responding to my refutation, but rather throwing out more bullshit?

All my points stand from my previous post, you have not even touched them. Chemtrails does not even pass the smell test. You have your bullshit, and just like idiots like Johannes you are not going to give it up no matter how much time I spend debunking them.

I am going to try and hold my tongue and stop myself from flaming you, even though this is the flame board.

*Snort*. Your comment below obviates this. I'll just point out, BTW, that you were the on who started in on the outright namecalling.

Of COURSE I know what natural contrails look like. I've been around this planet a lot longer than you, and I live out in the country, not in any large town.

This is called, loosely 'claims made from privileged perspective'. Essentially, it is a claimant suggesting 'only they' can see the truth because 'only they' have access to some subjective touchstone. I don't buy it for a second. If you did see a truth that I could not, you would be able to formulate an argument or display a set of data or reference an empirical set of phenomena that would demonstrate your position. If you can't, its like saying 'I'm right because I'm smart, so THERE!'. Having taught many brilliant people who could not argue their way out of wet paper bags, I can assure you that this kind of sillyness falls flat with me. Put up, or shut up. Hard data, not 'I have blue eyes so I can see what you can't'

And I grew up in rural Oklahoma where jets passed high overhead all day long in pristine blue skies on two major traffic corridors. You have not seen anything I have not.

I noticed the changes in contrails where I lived in Florida before the first launch at the Cape that took place after 9/11. (And I had been looking into contrails for five years before that, yet had never seen them with my own eyes). They effectively sprayed the skies causing complete cloud cover several days before the launch. I watched it with my own eyes.

bleah blah blah blibbity blah. You even pulled in 9/11 into this incoherent bit of babble. Good job. But this is not proof, this is not anything. Do you have a sample of this special weather altering pixie dust? If this has been going on for 20 years than millions upon millions of tonnes of it must have been dispersed. Is this sample made available to public labs? Do you have a causal mechanism by which this magic pixie dust alters climate? Do you have any scientist or group of scientists reviewing this? Do you have any peer reviewed documentation, evidence, etc?

Do you have paper trails? Do you have money trails to fund this? Do you have the locations of and pictures of this GIGANTIC fleet of aircraft?

Yep. Didn't think so.

I know now it was effective radar blocking, probably a national security directive to prevent any incoming missiles from interfering with the launch.

And you know this how?

And there were always the oily looking sun dogs appearing around 3-4pm, just like the photos I've seen of them.

Oh come on. You don't need OMG!!11CHEMTRAILZ!11! for perfectly natural refraction of the suns light through the atmosphere.

You're an asshole. (Sorry, couldn't help myself).

See above... Awww! Poor Lindy. Always the wounded party.

And you, Lindy, are a snake-oil chugging (and worse, a snake-oil selling) termite on the underpinnings of rational thought. By advocating and pushing this nonsense you do damage by convincing people who don't know better of boogeymen that don't exist. If we're lucky, you'll be laughed out of enough rooms that few will hear you. If we are unlucky, you and your little army of ignorant cohorts will overwhelm the dwindling voices of reason in our civilization and you'll have a mob, looking for blood, at the morgellons and chemtrail diseases that they were never given. They'll invent people to punish, just like you invent reasons to believe this crap. And innocent people will be screwed over by your crusade. But damn, you'll feel good knowing that you were right. That you knew the truth even when none was listening.

Put it together Lindy. where does this end? You create a boogey man and sell it to the masses. When enough believe that the booget man exists, it won;t matter if you are wrong... but those who believe will cry out for blood. Whose blood will it be? So what, its not Jews this time, but they'll find someone. You are doing harm Lindy. Real Harm. You should stop now.

They've been doing weather modification for years, and now Congress (and you) are paying for it. Get used to it.

And here we go, the final movement in the symphny of the pseudoscientist. I'm right and you're wrong and so there!

Says YOU, Lindy

Where is your proof? where is even a reasonable data set that can't be immediately laughed off the table?

Read the Airforce's "Owning the Weather 2025". And stop being so juvenile.

Oh for fucks sake, Lindy. The 'government' has been 'looking into' weather modification since the dawn of civilization- and SO THEY SHOULD! And someday, we may even be able to make small, minor, transient atmospheric changes that reliably locally modify weather. But not now, not today, and not for a long time. That our government has been 'looking into' weather modification since our government came into existence DOES NOT MEAN BOYS IN BLACK ARE FLITTING AROUND OUR SKIES SPRAYING CHEMICALS IN THE AIR. Thats not an argument, thats not evidence, thats supposition!

Yeti