You are the one that loves black or white thinking....

Is torture good or evil? Or is it one of the few ethical questions where you suddenly see only an infinite number of shades of grey?

Also reread the post again.... you missed the critical points.

The "condemnation" of the civilized world amounts to so many buzzing gnats to these people. Again, if we put up our captured terrorists at the Ritz, and then condemned our enemies for using power drills on captured prisoners, exactly WHAT WOULD BE DIFFERENT? You think they'd stop out of shame?

:( You really did not read what I said... I DONT expect the monsters to stop being monsters... I Just insist on us being better than, and distinguishable from, the monsters.

The "condemnation" of the civilized world amounts to so many buzzing gnats to these people.

Enjoy the 4th, I am not sure what you will be celebrating... I love this country because the principles it tries to live by have been an example to the civilized world ... If you cannot see that then you need to relearn your history. More than any other nation in this centure we have shaped the civilized world.

And the civilized nations who've been pissed at us through the entire Cold War would just find another reason to condemn us.

Did it ever occur to you that when the civilized world is 'pissed' at us that maybe its because we have given them reason to expect better from us? Ten years ago how would we react if our allies started embracing torture?

And finally, again, once you accept torture as ok WHERE do you draw a line? Once you go that far HOW can you make any sensible argument that we should go no further?