Mark,

) You avoided the main issue of your self contradiction. Thois tends to make people suspicious of you.

Barry says: What people? You mean you Mark?And the others you spew your propaganda too? Likewise I'm suspicious of you and your agenda and lack of respect for planetary protection.

Mark says: 2) Re your point 1:

a) RE "You can still contract diseases from other parts of the world (Earth) even though these germs have shared our planet with us for millions of years. So why would Martian grerms (if any) be any less harmful than our own?"

You have the argument of your critics exactly backwards. It is precisely because we have shared a world with certain microorganisms for millions of yeras that they are pathogenic.

Barry says: So what are you you are saying here? That Earth life was not transferred to Mars at one point? Your leader does - Dr. Zubrin. He says this all the time.

Mark quotes Barry: b) RE "You cannot prove they would be harmless,

Of course not. And we NEVER will no matter how many probes are sent to Mars. You can't prove a negative finding permanently. You can't prove life exists there let alone even suggest any rational reason why it should be harmful. All that anyone can do is evaluate the odds of one position vs the other given what we do know.

Barry says: How about sending some life sciences experiments to Mars? This has not been done for 26 years. Perhaps Beagle 2 with its microscope will observe some cells dividing, then we'll see. Obviously you try and dodge the fact the NASA Geosciences division is very interested in Levin's LR data. So much so they dedicated a website to it. USC Neruoscientist, Dr. Joseph Miller says there are circadian rhtyms in the LR data. Why aren't you the least bit curious?

Mark says: Despite your frequent distortion of their position the NRC has assesed the probability of both surface life on Mars and the independent probability of it being hazardous as near 0. Despite that they recomemnd as a matter of STANDARD scientific protocol that unusual unknown material be treated as
hazardous. Your whole position ignores that we know how to handle the most hazardous organisms known safely. This makes it a moot point even if in the extremely low probability event that Martian organisms exist and are hazardous.

Barry says: This lame argument of yours doesn't make it anymore. The new report plainly says NASA did not have the facility in place for a 2003 or 2005 MSR. Yet they fully planned to go ahead in spite of it. Plus it does not matter what kind of facility you have in place for the samples if they contaminate the biosphere before they get to the lab! Look at Apollo 11. $16 million dollars was spent on the Lunar Receiving Lab to insure that no lunar contamination (from organisms) would happen. Yet against established planetary protection protocols, the Apollo 11 capsule door was opened in the sea.

Barry says: Here you go Mark, the official NRC Press Release, even though you will never probably read it. Keep in mind, NASA had planned to return the samples by 2008, before any such facility would have existed:

Washington, DC (May 29)—Work on a quarantine facility must begin soon if it is to be ready in time for spacecraft returning to Earth with Martian rocks and soil in tow, says a new report from the National Academies' National Research Council. Although the probability is extremely low that these samples will contain hazardous organisms, prudence dictates that all material must be rigorously quarantined at first.

With current projections indicating that the first sampling mission to Mars could launch in 2011, Martian samples could reach Earth as early as 2014. A facility that isolates the samples from terrestrial organisms and chemicals—while safeguarding the Earth's environment from possible contamination—will probably take 7 years or more to design, build, and test.

“Building this type of quarantine facility is a project of enormous complexity,” said John Wood, chair of the committee that wrote the report and staff scientist at the Harvard–Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, Cambridge, MA. “We strongly recommend that this process get under way as soon as possible.”

One major problem in constructing such a facility is the unprecedented need for both biological containment and clean-room conditions. Biological containment is designed to protect the Earth's environment from possible contamination by the samples. Clean-room conditions are needed to prevent terrestrial organisms, dust, or other foreign matter from getting into the samples and changing their properties. Part of the problem is that contradictory measures are traditionally employed in these two types of facilities. Biological containment facilities enclose samples at lower-than-ambient air pressures so any leakage moves air into the sample chamber and away from the external environment. Clean-room cabinets, on the other hand, are held at greater-than-ambient gas pressures so leakage is outward, protecting the enclosed samples from external contamination.

Because a facility combining these features has never been built, extensive experimentation and testing will be needed to design a system of two-way protection. This must be accomplished before design work on the actual Mars quarantine facility begins. Experimentation also is needed to identify effective sterilization techniques that have a minimal impact on the physical and chemical properties of the samples. The report recommends that a continuing committee of biological and geochemical experts be assembled to oversee all aspects of planning, construction, and operation of the quarantine facility.

To maximize resources and expedite the process of meeting environmental requirements, the quarantine facility should be affiliated with—and located adjacent to—an existing containment facility such as those operated by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute for Infectious Diseases in Fort Detrick, MD, or the facility projected by the medical branch of the University of Texas at Galveston. However, NASA should operate and be responsible for the quarantine facility, the report recommends.

Because operations in a maximum-security containment facility are highly constrained, the report recommends that only the most basic preliminary examination necessary to document the samples and test them for biohazards should be carried out there. Once the samples are cleared for release, a broader range of examinations should be carried out elsewhere. Plans should be in place to promptly sterilize a portion of the samples after they are received so they can be safely transferred out of the facility for study in specialized university laboratories.

The committee proposed specific guidelines for release of samples from the facility. If found to contain no organic matter or other evidence of life, they could be released without sterilization. If the samples contain possible evidence of life, which is the most likely case, portions that have been sterilized by heat or g-radiation could be certified for release and study elsewhere. If the samples are found to contain unmistakable evidence of life, they should not be released at all until an expert panel of biologists is convened to rethink the situation; the establishment of a research facility dedicated to their study, far more extensive than the quarantine facility, will probably be justified.
The study was sponsored by NASA. The National Research Council is the principal operating arm of the National Academy of Sciences and the National Academy of Engineering. It is a private, nonprofit institution that provides independent advice on science and technology issues under a congressional charter. A committee roster follows.

The Quarantine and Certification of Martian Samples will be available on the World Wide Web at www.nap.edu/catalog/10138.html. The Academies' Web site also will feature supplemental information and an extended Web treatment at http://national-academies.org/webextra/mars.

NATIONAL RESEARCH COUNCIL
Division on Engineering and Physical Sciences
Space Studies Board

c)RE: "otherwise the National Research Council would not have issued it's most recent report stating that an appropriate Martian Quarantine Facility would take ten years to build."

Another misleading comment. The recommendation for a new facility was to ensure both containment and no contamination. They did not state that current biohazard facilities were inadequate for containment reasons. They stated the two goals were somewhat contradictory as one typically relies on positive pressure while the other often relies on negative. As I have poointed about before the retun on investment in such a facility is very low because contamination issues with existing containment facilities are already low or the research threir would be worthless. A much simpler solution is a positive pressure box inside a negative pressure building.

Barry says: If you would only read the report!

3) RE: your point 2. I know you have a copy of the one here:
http://www.planetary.org/html/news/articlearchive/headlines/2000/swappingrocks.html . Zubrin's rock argument is simplistic for some of the reasons you mention but the article you site came up with a nonzero estimate for the amount of material meeting the requirements.

The article you site clearly states that "They select conditions that optimise the chances of lifeforms surviving the journey" and "These criteria are likely to be very conservative and therefore serve to set a lower limit to the exchange of hospitable rocks between Mars and Earth". It reduces your credibility to claim optimum conditions are limiting ones and that lower limits are upper limits. Once again you have gotten the technical arguments exactly backwards. As with all matters of probability there is no exact time at which the probability of viability reaches 0. Siting articles which "prove" your point which in fact do not is another reason many hold you in low regard.

Barry says: Once again, you just don't do your homework. Please read the Milekowsky paper:

Mileikowsky C., Cucinotta F.A., Wilson J.W., Gladman B., Horneck G., Lindegren L., Melosh H.J., Rickman H., Valtonen M. and Zheng J.Q. (200) 'Risks threatening viable transfer of microbes between bodies in our solar system', Planetary and Space Science 48 (2000) 1107-1115.

On a final note YOUR source states "Under this scenario the quantity of "hospitable" ejecta reaching the Earth from Mars averages out at 150 kg per year. This represents roughly 15% of the total estimated quantity of Martian material falling to Earth each year."

Barry asks: So where is all this Martian material Mark? We have 17 SNC meteorites, thats it. All of these SNC's are older than what Milekowsky says spores can remain viable.

Mark says:

RE: " if the Mars Society is a non-profit organization, why does Bob Zubrin sell his books in every room of a Mars Society Convention? Are the profits from the sales of his books going straight to the Mars Society or his bank account?"

In the past he has donated his portion to the Mars Society.

Barry asks: Only a portion? I saw boxes of his books at every location at last years Toronto Convention. And only his books were being allowed for sale. Hmmmmmmm

Mark says: Whether or not he still does I don't know. So exactly how much have you donated from your profits and due your sales increase everytime you get airtime to spout your dangerous microbe theories?

Barry says: I don't sell my books thru a non-profit organization event because that only invites the IRS to invesitgate you. : -)

Mark says: PS Since you like Sagan so much that you support even his dumbest ideas like testing MSR with anthrax I suggest you read his book "The Demon Haunted World" and look up the tools in his scientific baloney detection kit. Many of your detractors are equiped with something similar and you might hone your arguments better if you learned to apply it to yourself.

Barry says: You would be shocked at the quality of scientists who have signed the ICAMSR petition. Not everyone is so unconcerned about planetary protection as you and Dr. Zubrin seem to be. You are difinitely in the minority.

Have a nice weekend Mark.

BarryD