"I think we have established that you have no workable alternatives."

We have not established that. Furthermore, we CERTAINLY have not established that there ARE no other workable alternatives. Finally, ABSOLUTELY have not established that *this* alternative (war) is correct simply because of the absence of workable alternatives. We HAVE established that the Bush administration HAS NOT even openly discussed meaningful alternatives. NOBODY is discussing meaningful alternatives. That sucks, but that absence of discussed alternatives does not prova or make or even support a case for war!

"What it boils down to is the viewpoint that it is better for the people of Iraq to live for decades under these monsters than to risk dying in a war of liberation"
<and as to yout '*' comment as well>

No, I am not for the status quo, We have been through that a thousand times. And if this really was part of a real policy of liberation, I would be for it. Its not. We allow and support the oppressors in dozens of nations around the world. Again- a thin (anorexic) justification.

"It's possible that the slaves of the old American South might have thrown off slavery on their own without a Civil War. My own take on it is that left alone, the practice would have died off in the face of more economic alternatives. In a generation or so. Should we have left them alone?"

Tom, get off of it, I'm not arguing for it. This is a classic false dichotomy. This is NOT JUST a question of war or the status quo, and its dishonest to try to make it into that.

"Wait and see what the Iraqi people say, when they are finally free to speak."

Some of them will say thank you, of this I have no doubt. Others will be too busy dying of illness or wounds to thank us. And many more will be dead in shallow graves somewhere in the middle of the dessert.

War is murder, pure and simple. As its means, as its task, as its apparatus, it is about killing them until they stop fighting. Sometimes, there really is no other recourse. Sometimes it IS about self defense. Sometimes it is justified. This is not any of those.

Next your going to say its all just opinion. Well bullshit again. The weight of a neutron is not my opinion. There are facts and traction for reason here. This is not about 'feelings', but about fact.

Where is your consistent and convincing case for war? Your evidence? Where is your proof of clear and present danger? Where is your proof of terrorist connections? Where is your plan for how we deal with the global hatred that will follow? Where is your justification that it is worth that hatred? Where is you evidence that this really is a war of pure liberation that will be carried out in kind around the globe against all monsters oppressing their people?

Or is this all just your faith? Are we to execute a war on faith? Is it not clear to you that, for the most part, faith rarely survives encounter with reality and facts? Is it not clear that reason and evidence and scientific thinking is superior to faith as a justification for action?

Where am I wrong tom? I have seen you debunk with the best of them over on Space. Either I am right or I am wrong. Either way, demonstrate it! Discount me! I am waiting! Since I can't stop this war I would LOVE to be convinced that it is the right thing to do, but I have that small barrier of intellectual integrity that must be surmounted first.

Davin