Tom wrote:
"You seem to be utterly convinced that the entire nation of Iraq contained absolutely no weapons of mass destruction or the capacity to make them."

Tom, its been over two months since we had boots on the ground, and I don't see chemical factories, nuke research facilites, Solid evidence of AlQaeda training camps or personel, etc. I see two trailer-thingies that really look like they were pulled from a junk-yard that don't test positive for Bioagents but seem to be the ONLY thing our gov't has.

So empirically, as a rational person: I can't support any other conclusion.

Tom Wrote:
"Remember, the U.N. resolution placed the burden of proof on Iraq, and Iraq failed to meet that miserably"

We both know that by the time "the UN resolution" was passed, war was a foregone conclusion. Iraq knew this too. The rhetoric out of the whitehouse at that time could support no other conclusion.

Tom Wrote:
"assuming nothing drastic was done to conceal or destroy them before the war started. "

This is SpaceAlienConspiricy logic: the absence of evidence for X only demonstrates that there was a conspiricy to cover-up that evidence.

Then, in the next breath, Tom writes:
"On the other hand, you and the others seem to be so fixated on the Evil Bush Grand Conspiracy Theory that you haven't really considered any of the other alternatives."

Odd that you should now invoke accusations of 'conspiracy' thinking in this argument.

I think the administration was determined to go to war, was certain that WMD existed and then acted with criminal negligence and insidious behavior to sell this war here and over-seas. The facts never mettered. This is not so much a conspiracy of malice of fore-though, but rather a conspiracy of pure arrogance and irrational bloody-mindedness.

Tom wrote:
"Maybe you should back down a bit from your certainty as well."
and
"I like to think my mind is still open, at least a bit. Is yours? "

Recall Tom, I stipulated that WMD probably existed, and I waited nearly a month before I started claiming that the WMD claims were decidedly false. I waited and watched with an open mind....

Tom- What does the evidence suggest? not just in dribs and drabs, but in volumes! We have traced through, together here, nearly every claim of terorist ties (before, during and after the war) and NOTHING gives those claims any strength. We have had boots-on-the-ground for months, and where are the Nuclear programs, the BiReactors, the Chemical factories, the Tonnes of Anthrax, VX, Sarin, Botulinum? Recall the speach Powell gave before the UN? The one he said "We Know this" (exact words).

What does the evidence suggest we knew and did not know with sufficent certainty?

Yes, my mind is open, but so are my eyes.

I will tell you what I tell people who claim to be rational, who 'doubt' that crystals and Magnents have healing properties, but who wish to be 'Open' to the possibility: There is a difference between being open minded and simply wanting to believe because it sounds cool.

So again- I say we were lied to. We (as a democracy) have been made a party to a massive act of murder.

If you think I am upset about this, I am. What I think is stuning is that you (and most 'rightist' americans) think that I am too upset about this.

Davin