"As for the U.N. example, and others I have given, you have asked me to show you evidence that someone other than myself believed there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq in recent times. "

No, I think its a given that others think there are WMD in recent times. What I am concerned about is that you stipulate that "everyone" (and namely the Europeans) believed it in the lead up to this war. I have pressured you for evidence on this point, and aside from a very flimsy statement from Chiraq, which is not at all certain, this is all you have provided Not statements from european leaders other than the brits, not intel reports from anyone other than the brits.

What I am also concerned about is that you stipulate that "everyone" (and most especially Clinton) believed it in 1998. All you have offered to support this claim is 1441, which is about 2002 and not 1998.

"I don't think anyone else is having trouble following my reasoning."
9-out-of-10 folks on this board are conservatives who are (mostly, but not all!) neither as erudite nor as adept as you in debate. They find your material convincing. That they agree with you, though, is like the preacher pointing to the Choir for material support. A complete non-starter. And unimpressive to me as I deal with folks on a daily basis who could eat both yours and mine frontal lobes for a snack.

Anyway And here is the point, again, this time itemized in hopes you will finally grok it.:

Tom, my issues are the following:

1) You are making a mountain out of a mole-hill. While it is true that a large number of folks believed there was WMD in Iraq in recent times (me included)- it is most certainly not the case the EVERYONE was in UNQUESTIONING AGREEMENT that there were, and that it was at any time PROVED!

2) EVEN STIPULATING that 'most people thought Iraq had WMD', it is IRRELEVANT to determining if Bush was Incompetent or Lied about Iraq having WMD.
2a) It is IRRELEVANT regarding honesty because he claimed that HE (not other folks, mimself) just KNEW Iraq had WMD, and via Rumsfeld, where they were located

2b)It is IRRELEVANT regarding competencey, because if he were to claim 'we went to war based on what everyone else thought', you want him fired immediately.

3) EVEN STIPULATING that we thought Iraq had WMD in 1998, it is IRRELEVANT to determining if Bush was Incompetent or Lied about Iraq having WMD.

3a) It is IRRELEVANT regarding honesty because he claimed that HE (not other folks, mimself) just KNEW Iraq had WMD, currently, in 2003- not in 1998

3b)It is IRRELEVANT regarding competency, because if he were to claim 'we went to war based on what everyone else thought in 1998', you want him fired immediately.

So, EVEN GRANTING your claim about what everyone else thought in 2002 or 1998- IT MEANS ABSO-FRIGGIN-LUTELY nothing about anything we are discussing here. It is a non-sequiter, a red-herring and an attempt to shift the debate

In terms of moral justification, it is a "he did it too" sort of argument, one that you would expect to hear from a 2-year-old and one that is just as convincing.

You are wiggling, Tom... Like a Used Mexican space shuttle on take-off.

Davin L.

" think we are all aware that your views on Israel and Palestine are more reasonable and grounded in reality than the typical Leftist views are."

Are they? Or are they just views you have actually listned to. Sorry to nitpick- but you dismiss stuff all to easily, or at least I think you do....