I specifically said I wasnt for banning guns...

I'm sorry, I did not mean anything to be directed toward you that implied that.

Please reread that post... My point was that there is VERY OBVIOUSLY wrong in the way Americans and guns mix... I also agreed that gun death rates had dropped... but not enough to make us compare well with other first world nations...

no, but we are starting to get close I think. We have dropped a considerable amount.

when a mass school shooting happens in america it is horrible and we say, "oh no not again"

when a mass school shooting happens in europe we say "wow, didnt think that they had that" the fact is there is an illness here, and instead of blaming it on guns, or on the other side saying "you can pry it from my cold dead hands" maybe we could discuss why we have this sickness...

with regards to columbine, we did say "didn't think that could happen here. What happened afterwards wer a series of copy cat incidents. They seem to have gotten rare again. That period may well be over, I haven't seen any more incidents making the news lately, please correct me if I am wrong.

Before you invest the negative amount of intelligence that it takes to set up your traditional straw man arguments, remember I am NOT advocating the stormtroopers raiding your home for guns, I am not for banning guns...

Well, I'm interested to hear what my straw man arguments are. But on the other hand I'm not, I could use the same level of prejudice you used when you said that to figure that out on my own. Or we could have a discussion and we could bounce a few ideas off each other instead of omnisciently envisioning me with a few 'straw man' arguments, mentally knocking them down and using that as an excuse to deride me as some right wing gun nut. (you may as well hold a debate with a cardboard cutout of Charlton Heston ala the History Channel Comercials of similar theme)

snip ...Throwing NRA garbage at me will get you nowhere...

what NRA garbage?! did I post some NRA garbage anywhere? everything I posted I got from the CDC and census.gov. was it something I said? If it was the ". . . taking my gun(1) away . . ." then I apologize, that was not directed at you, but ther eare extremists on both sides of this. I won't assign extremist values to you if you don't assign them to me.

I cannot take you seriously unless you agree that they are extremists just like ELF and PETA are extremists...

hmm. . .well ok, my position with the NRA (not a member) is that it is filled with a lot of extreme people. In fact a lot like Lindy without exception to the UFOs. (the guv'mints' out to get me!! their trying to merge my government with the UN! Its just like 1984 and Brave New World! etc. . ) Of course it has its level heads as well, just like I am sure PETA does. . . (but maybe not ELF). Incidentally, just as extreme as some of the groups that oppose it. They cook statistics worse than the NRA sometimes.

However they are relatively harmless in that the NRA doesn't go around raiding police departments to release confiscated arms 'back into the wild'. At least thier influence stays at the political level. And this is in fact a good thing. Its kept alive by a cross section of american people. If the balance of opinion sways enough against them, enough money flows into the oppositions pockets to counter the NRA.

but I'll go ahead and say it "the NRA is a lobby that is as extremist as PETA, or at least a lobby that has quite a few extremists in it" close enough?

I am advocating the RATIONAL discussion of why we seem to have such a problem...

?!?!? I did start (or at least I thought) a rational discustion! Your response was you can argue the reasons and cause of the problem, but not the existance of the problem...." Ok fine, I tried, obviously I failed. I'll let you start, go ahead and kick it off. I'll follow your lead here.

perhaps you would want to elaborate instead on this:

What is it that is wrong here? Our culture or our guns? Personally I thing it is both...

or not. . . its up to you, but it makes a great title sentence.

anxiously awaiting some discussion. . .
Justin