What makes you think so? The "civil war" just keeps getting bloodier and bloodier, and it's starting to appear that the President we just installed will turn out to be a "strongman" in a similar vein to Saddam--but our strongman, much as Saddam was in the '80s. I'm not sure what circumstance in Iraq right now would make anybody feel free. < b> Can you really feel free if you're afraid to go to the market for fear of being blown up?

Would you then say the Israeli's are not a free people?

The Iraqi people are now able to sit around the cafes in town and discuss politics giving support for there favorite candidate, not something you could do with Saddam. Unless you wanted to be thrown from a 3 story building and I don't think the current president is going to get away with those kind of atrocities.

Wouldn't you have to go back several thousand years to the days when Babylon was a flower of civilization? I don't see how occupation of the same patch of ground as a once-mighty civilization confers any special abilities on the present-day occupants of the area. Living on the site of the Roman Empire doesn't seem to have endowed the Italians with any special gifts in the modern world.

So Iraq wasn't a great country after 6,000 years ago. It sure may have been the best years of Iraq. There modern age culture of art, music and theater will once again blossom now that Saddam is not controlling them as that what I was referring to. Who knows, an Iraqi just might win a gold metal in the future now that the torturing son is gone.

Iraq has some good architects and wouldn't it be great if Frank Llyod Wright's 'Wright's Baghdad' was implemented. That flower just might take root. CNN had an article a while back on this too.

If they get there. That's a case of using the desired outcome as an argument for the present means of getting there--entirely circular.

Yes, it was a case of optimism, they are already there. I believe they desire a goal of achieving that freedom.

That's a variation on the simplistic chestnut "they just hate freedom,", which ranks down there with "they're just jealous!" in its lack of meaning and insight. Who "hates" freedom? Even in totalitarian societies I'd say few people actually want to go to prison or be killed. That's like saying "they hate breathing" or "they eat their young" in its irrationality.

I don't think it's about who hates freedom as you described but who (insurgents) is scared of it as a part of a governing society and the Iraqi's desire for it. Many a leader were/are afraid of the power of freedom to the people.

Even if Bush is reelected it will take more than his existence, but with continued policies like the Middle East Initiative which is a good start. I don't think it's blind but a complicated task with several countries onboard to help it come true.

The article Tom made available was lengthy with several links and after reading it and checking out some links it seemed easier to just make a short comment on the whole of it.