If its a pissing match, its a friendly pissing match as far as I'm concerned- my Ire isn't particularily up.

You may be right about Java client-side, a lot depends on if Flash does what Java was supposed to do (cross platform performance). If it does, and if their performance problems (big honkin' resource pig that makes Java look like a ballet dancer) don't increase it could really have legs. IMHO- If any model logic needs to be off-loaded to the client, though, Flash becomes problematic because it hits the wall rather hard when it leaves the domain of a GUI.

Frankly, though, I won't be trading in my JDK anytime soon ;-)

I'll simply have to take your word for it that Javascript works great for fat clients. The one sort-of-fat client that I saw implemented if the shop-down-the-road in JavaScript is currently being ported to Java as a WebStart- but I have no real basis to say if they really understand javascript, at least to the level that you do.

FYI, my Java GUIs have animations, images, in-interface help and many of the aspects of a flash interface. I understand that most programmers don't really spend the time to understand SWING-- I see many such interfaces in applets and applications all the time. But that really isn't the fault of JAVA per-se. However, I do think that Sun could really improve JAVA by re-vamping the Windowing toolkits. The beauty and curse of swing is that a little bit of work can get you a tolerable but clunky interface- but it takes a LOT of skill and OOP experience to build a solid flashy interface.

Again, I decline to really speak that much on javascript. What little I have done in it has consistently broken on different browsers, different OS's and even between versions of one browser... Or even the same browser on different platforms... But all I have done are little ditties. I am a little concerned that the 'cross platform' performance you attribute to javascript seems to be defined as Firefox and IE.

For .Net, I too have little energy or patience to defend, discuss or even work with that product. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. I just don't see the CLR as an evolutionary (and certainly not revolutionary) step in VM technology.

WRT 1.5, you are right-on to be annoyed. Many of us JAVA engineers are pissed with 1.5, So keep in mind- it is more the exception in Java history than the rule.

As I have said repeatedly in this thread, I am more than willing to keep an open mind about Javascript and its future- what are some of your favorite resources for it?

A.P.