over and over again? Had I come here, screamed outrage after a month a frustration and left permanently with my tail between my legs, you'd have a valid point but that's not the case.

I think both ER and I have been prolific in our attempts to bring solid issues to the table complete with compromise and compassion for the other viewpoint and every damned time we've left the discussion with a chunk out of our ass and shaking our heads in disbelief as someone's lectured us about how we should put up with the abuse because of the long rich history of some of the people on here. Our problem is just that we're just not accepting enough of competing views.

Well, you and I both know that's far from what has happened. We instead breathed a sigh of relief after the elections figuring that we could once again get past the barrage of Limbaugh-style propaganda and back to serious discussions and brainstorming and wham, it not only didn't stop but in many cases became more vicious and deceptive.

Look, I understand the appeal of having strong-willed debaters that challenge you. I get a rush out of that as well but there's a point where, if the other side doesn't play fair, it just wears you down and all the fun goes away. It's like talking about religion with a fundamentalist. Logic, science, and reason are shot down by people who, if they sense they're losing, just change the rules of logic and physics and begin throwing circular reasoning at you. The Bible is right because the Bible says it's right. To a debate audience made up of true intellectuals those tactics result in the offending person being whisked offstage by a giant hook with a gong sounding in the background. Here it seems to be a badge of honor. That's laughable and as ER so deftly put it, a big waste of time.

So in effect alcaray, we're not whining. We're just bored.

Art