Interesting. Before the war it was all about how we had to go get those terrorists and those weapons of mass destruction. Paramount in fact. A moral imperitive that the 'cowards' on the 'socialist left' just couldn't wrap their minds around. All the way up to the start of the war, the voices were held high in unified chorus on these issues.

Now there is digression. View points are being arranged *after the fact* to say that: 'well, the weapons and the terrorists were never important'. This was about something else entirely. Although the something else seems to be vague and amorphous... Emotional in fact and not rational. Ah, but a thousand posts will follow this where those only concerned about being right and those not wanting to abandon the faith will use this as a chance to 'clarify' their position... A clintonesque equivocation, some might say. We *never* really thought this war was predicated on justified self-defense. Not really.

What do you folks have to say about Clinton- and his "misleading te american people". What do you folks have to say about those who supported him blindly even AFTER the lies were exposed? Nothing good, as I have observed

And that deception was over a clumsy and inept sexual indescretion. This deception (intentional or not, it was still the responsibility of this administration... The buck stops there) was about a war. We killed a lot of people. A lot of americans died foir this, in uniform, with faith and trust that their sacrifice was just. A lot of civilians died. More are disfigured.

Where is integrity to be found in this community?

WMD may yet be found, this is true- and I hope and pray for the sake of this country that it IS found, or we will look horrible. And we will deserve how we look.

Solid Terrorist links will probably not be found. There simply was NEVER any hard data on this issue. It was ALL innuendo. It was all debatable at best, and some here were debating it from the start. But WMD would be something big, and that may yet be found.

But already the digression here and elsewhere has begun- even before it is conclusive that there is no WMD. Already the spin. Already the shift in the context of the discussion away from WMD and Terrorist links- and into vague notions of 'setting an example' and 'good for peace'... Amorphous arguments that require predictions about the future that will or will not bear out in a dozen years or more... Convinient. Convinient for those who lead and for those who follow.

In fact, these shifts have happened before here and elsewhere, when the whole national debate moved from justified self defense into notions of Liberation- Notions that simply do not bear fruit. Comparisons with Just and justified wars in our past where we freed allies and squashed enemies. We began to depart from Justified Self Defense in the 11th hour before the war, just as our bombs began to fall.

And now here we are, The shooting war long over and No WMD and No Terrorists and NO JUSTIFIED SELF DEFENSE and an occupied country full of angry Iraqis and MAYBE half our troops will be home in "the fall". And suicide bombs. And angry mobs. And....

Is there integrity in this community? Why is governmental deception a party issue and not a patriot issue?

I am mad and bitter. Our government swore in front of the world that Saddam HAD WMD, and that Saddam was in collusion with Terrorists who WERE AL-Qaeda operatives. This threat was so real and so eminent that it demanded war. And now, a month after Baghdad fell, what do we have? Where is that IMMEDIATE, CLEAR and PRESSING threat?

Why is this sentiment, this anger, not echoed here among the exact same people who are still bitter and angry about the 'Clinton Experience'? Why should ANY america not be concerned over the lack of WMD and Terrorists?

Davin L.