You can find nuts, indeed groups of nuts, that say stupid irrational things... to use these statements as a characterization of the left is a cheap, and lazy, debating technique... in an earlier thread ednelson accused me of being 'defeatist'. That was another cheap lazy shot... FIRST - I sincerely hope for as few casualties as possible- on both sides.

SECOND- I don't want us to pull out of Iraq, we are morally obligated to clean up this mess.

THIRD - I was as supportive as anyone of our actions in Afghanistan

What pisses me off is the fact we and our allies were lied to and manipulated, and now we are trying to retroactively redefine our justification for war- and what REALLY pisses me off is that so many accept this as ok...

What upsets me is we told the UN to go to hell, and now we go to them and ask them to help us clean up the mess we made...

This has done SEVERE damage to our relations with our allies, and to how we are viewed by the world... This has made the middle east MORE unstable, and has made the US less secure in the long run.

So no, I am not a defeatist- I just feel like it is patriotic to point out when I see my country is doing self defeating acts.

Tom, you very often argue by defining the other side by the most insane extremists you can find... That isnt an argument...

"Heyyy, I came here for an argument!"
"Oh! an argument? I'm sorry- this is abuse! Argument is the next door down the hall"