Yes, my point is that the extremists ruin any rational debate when they participate, or are invoked as the sterotype of your opponent.

This IS a mess, our troops are being killed by a more and more organized resistance... AGAIN I say we have to stay in- because if we stop now the results will be horrific... AGAIN I say we went in under a lie, and if you claim we havent hurt our image in the world then well, you dont get out much...

some may claim we haven't screwed our image, but they have to be morons- I talk to many foreign nationals- just educated ones, yes- so think what the ignorant and angry think... we are NOT coming across well- try to abandon your patriotism for a moment and imagine how we look to others.... (Doing this is not "unpatriotic" its just common sense if you are going to live with the world)... We tell everyone to go to hell and then ask for their help after... I found that humiliating! If you play an arrogant bastard, you cant go and ask for help later from those you told to go to hell...

I would respect a lot of the people here a lot more if they would just admit the following: "The reasons we claimed we had to go to war were lies... but we started this and bear moral responsibility for our actions... "
But DO NOT redefine our reasons for this- we did not give a DAMN about the mass graves, hell when many of them were dug we were supporting Saddam...

END OF RANT