T. B. - "Nations that loot their own citizens, oppress them and murder them by the thousands are, to put it mildly, run by crooks. Such nations are, sadly, represented in great numbers at the U.N. And it goes without saying that such nations would send fellow crooks to the U.N. as representatives.

"My main objection to the U.N. is that it assigns legitimacy to such dictators, thugs, and mass murderers."

The US creates and supports such people. The US installed the Shah of Iran, who oppressed and murdered Iranians. The CIA even taught the SAVAK how to most effectively torture Iranians! The US has created and installed the gov'ts of the banana republics, who oppressed and murdered their own citizens. The US funded the Contras, partially with drug money, making possible the slaughter of thousands upon thousands of people just because they placed their national interests ahead of American commercial interests. And it goes on and on. We tend to forget those things, and we don't get a very balanced view of them from our media.

I think that the US "assigns legitimacy" to such dictators, thugs and mass murderers" as much as does the UN. And the US, as opposed to the UN, creates them when it fits the commercial interests of the US.

T. B. - "But when such thugs are assumed to be no different than civilized nations then you get obscenities like Libya being assigned a place in the Human Rights organization of the U.N. When such thugs are actually considered by some in the U.N. to be morally superior to nations like Britain or the United States, then the moral inversion is complete."

There are many countries which have ratified treaties or endorsed conventions which haven't been ratified and/or endorsed by the US, such as rights for women and children, banning land mines, against biochemical warfare. Are they a bit higher on the "morality" scale than the US for that?

I think so.

And, you are absolutely right. We all need a place to talk. Just because my neighbor is a liar doesn't mean I can't deal with him. I just need to recognize he's a liar. Does the best he can, and that includes lying. There isn't anything personal in it.

I think that one must clean their own house before poking around the their neighbors closets being critical.

Arf