Tom wrote:
"Actually, the most logical conclusion is that NONE of them were lying, or stupid, and that those who insist that there never were any WMD in Iraq after the inspectors were tossed out are the ones who are wrong. "

Okay, this is a different point [a wiggle maybe?]. The problem is, though, since no weapons have been found then it certainly strongly implies that there were none.

Tom wrote:
"This entire issue is a transparent attempt to stick something on Bush, regardless of the facts, and it's going to fall as flat as the others."

Tom, this is absurd. If I take a man to task for lying or being incompetent on the job- then OF COURSE I am trying to stick something on him. Its called holding people accountable for their actions- this is something I thought you would, in general, endorse- but I guess the 'right' only wants to hold OTHER folks accountable?

"And the constant insistence that collateral damage renders a war immoral is just plain nuts. One assumes that the collateral damage in Afghanistan is okay with you, since they shot at us first. "

You seem to invalidate your critique right there. Of course collateral dammage in Afghanistan was justifiable. The Afghani regime was intimately tied up with the organization which caused the most pernicious attack on US soil ever, against civilians. Not only were they continuing to harbor that organization, but they seemed to be in complete agreement with the attacks and practically stated there would be more. War is justified when it is in clear self defense. That is a maxim I have held from my first comment on this issue here on this board.

"However, the innocent people over there are just as dead as the bystanders in Iraq. What's the difference, really, from your point of view? Have you really thought this through? "

Of course I have, Tom. You are drawing another 'Phantom' moral equivalence. Again and ad nauseum- in Afghanistan we were justified to wage war. In Iraq we were never justified morally (claiming self defense even stipulating WMD) and it seems that even our flawed putative justifications were fantasies. So the collateral dammage there, the war, even the enemy soldiers killed are NOT in the same order. They are unjustified casualties, and this is tantamount to murder.

I'll say this again: We were a party to murder.

Davin L.