Davin wrote: "Even if we grant that one actually can free a civilization by invading them against their will, blowing up any opposing Iraqis and then occupying them for an indefinite period in which we hold all meaningful political power."

tom replied: "Oh, yeah. This has NEVER BEEN DONE before. Hirohito and Hitler just got tired and gave up. Never had to send a single soldier to Europe or the Pacific. Didn't have to actually NUKE Japan, or bomb the living shit out of Germany. Get serious."

Man, we must be getting to you, now your sounding like your below-average conservative bobble head. Take a deep breath, Tom, its going to be alright.

We went to war with Japan and Nazi Germany NOT (and this is a profoundly important point, one bourne out by history and historians alike) for the sake of 'liberating' Japan and Nazi Germany. We Went to war with Japan and Germany to wage TOTAL WAR for the sake of our National Defense and National Survival. That we freed the Japanese and the Germans was a NICE and HONORABLE thing we did in the aftermath of having pulverized their nations in a total war. It was the smart thing to do, as well, in the observed aftermath of WWI- namely the rise of Totalitarian regimes in war-torn defeated nations.

Where in Europe that we Freed our allies, we freed peoples occupied by our blood enemy as part of the necessity of waging that war against those blood enemies. Where we Freed our allies, it was also where they begged and demanded our help.

Your attempt to drag up this completely and fundamentally different conflict smacks of desperation, and is blatantly revisionist to boot. It is, in essence, intellectually dishonest.

Tom wrote: "with a few exceptions (the Soviet Union actually DID seem to get tired and give up), beating the crap out of a tyranny and rebuilding from whatever is left has been the ONLY way to permanently defeat one and get the people back on their own feet."

And lets not forget China, who while they still have MILES to go, is a fundamentally better place than it was 20 years ago, or even 10. And Communist Vietnam, who is thawing at a glacial but steady pace. And The Eastern Bloc collapsing, namely Romania, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland. And....

So, yeah, except for the fact that WWII are your only sound examples of beating Tyranny to death, and that there are more counter examples to your claim than examples- by god! Yer completely right! I'll come around to your way of thinking as soon as I finish trimming my toe-nails.

Right.

tom wrote: " have a basic choice: I either believe that Bush, Powell, Rice, Rumsfeld, the hundreds working in the DOD and CIA under two administrations, the British intelligence and defense network, the people working onsite in Iraq, and the United Nations are all full of crap, or that you are. "

Awwww. Thats the sweetest thing you've ever said to me Tom. I'm touched. ;-)

As far as crap, you just laid down a thick layer with the previous post...

Feeling desperate Tom? Your rhetoric is sounding more so by the week.

Say hello to the Yeti for me.

Davin L.