...however, I don't really see why this is on Flame unless that "hate" part is referring to individual members of the zone and not the Bush administration.

This'll be a first for me - I've never posted about an IM discussion (besides - don't you guys know the government bugs ICQ, Kazaa, MS IM & all those type software programs? Convenient, yes - but not secure at all. I hand deleted the software on two of my home computers where it came standard-they mix it up with outlook express and a bunch of other stuff to make it harder to remove.)

Here goes:

Mary Anne: Reading the Seattle Times article.
Mary Anne: Finished

I assume the article is the Seattle Post-Intelligencer is the one you are referring to about Gore criticizing Bush, etc. A brief tour of their web news makes me feel like I'm reading the clean, public, sanitized version of the Democrats.com site.

Mary Anne: This is sad.
Fox: Isn't it?


Yes, Gore is pretty sad. He's whining but not running. He's not running cause he'd get his tush booted back up to Tennessee again, and they already disowned him last time out. The saddest thing about the Gores and Clintons is that they have no class. The rules of politics mean that when you lose you don't go on speaking tours criticizing the victor. The unspoken rules state if you want to bitch, you write a persuasive Sunday opinion piece and fire it off to the syndicate. And you don't even do that very often - because it often comes off just like Sore/ Loserman - just like this incident does. Whether it's pooping on the white house rugs, urinating on floors or removing W keys from keyboards - the Gore/Clinton folks just have no class. Class is not money, they have plenty of money and not a single ounce of class. Sore losers is an understatement - they were just more hillbilly inbreds making a mockery of the Presidency, like so many have before them.


Mary Anne: And they will persist in spinning.
Mary Anne: Don must feel like Cassandra.


Cassandra? I was thinking more of Arachne, as he tries to spin others misfortunes in Iraq together in an endless parade of importunate posts to show his position. It's too bad he couldn't feel his guilt with a tap from the Goddess of Wisdom, like Arachne did, however he will have to come to these conclusions on his own.


Fox: It's not spin, it's flat-out denial.
Mary Anne: Denial is spin, but not all spin is denial.
Fox: True.
Mary Anne: We move from "there are weapons" to "there were weapons" to "who cares if there were weapons?"
Fox: Big Lie - Big Excuse - Big Deal


What denial? You guys have already convicted Bush because the WMD weren't lying in Saddam's backyard labeled and tagged? We moved on Iraq to remove WMD - Saddam knew this for over eight months. The first thing of value he would remove to safe places would be any WMD he had time to build anything - almost anywhere in Iraq. That nothing has been publicly revealed yet does not mean certain things have not been confiscated. The public, the media and the folks ready to say it was all lies are already ready to convict Bush because nothing has been displayed yet. Had we moved in with a Fast Response Team long while we still focused on Afghanistan - we might've found them easier and faster. But this way, we will be finding illicit materials in Iraq for years


Mary Anne: Retrofitting the justifications to fit the critics.
Fox: They've been doing that since last year.
Mary Anne: This is such a cynical manipulation of the nation's voters. It's worse than anything I've seen in a long time.
Fox: Dare I say, since Nixon?

Oooh Nixon! Hisss! Boo!

Mary Anne: I'm so disgusted.
Mary Anne: No.
Mary Anne: Nixon broke the law, but he was just trying to choose his opponent.
Mary Anne: These people are not only going after the elections, they are trying to dominate a distant region of the world in which many of their friends have substantial business interests.
Fox: I was thinking less about Watergate than I was about his conduct of the Vietnam War and the opposition at home.
Fox: See also Spiro Agnew

Ooh! Tax Evading Scum! Cross yourselves now folks!


Mary Anne: Well, sorta. But he just exploited a situation that he was already handed.
Mary Anne: I'm thinking of McCarthy.
Fox: Ah, yes.

Boo! Screeech! Howl! Tear out your hair folks - It's Judge & Jury Joe!


Mary Anne: The use of fear and misinformation to inflame public opinion...
Mary Anne: And then put imperial pretensions on top of it.
Mary Anne: This is disgusting.
Mary Anne: I'm beginning to hate these people.
Fox: Only beginning to?

Was that the flame part? ;-)


Mary Anne: I've got a political heart, Fox.
Mary Anne: I understand the urge, the need to play the game.
Mary Anne: I have disliked their politics, and distrusted their methods, and disdained their "ethics".
Mary Anne: But still recognize it as a craft.
Mary Anne: We are now getting into the area in which the craftsmen are using their skill to build corrupting and repulsive machines.

Like this one perhaps!
Lynne: Dick get out of the garage this instant!
Dick: I'm almost finished honey, just let me tighten this nut.


Mary Anne: As opposed to merely playing hardball.

<IMG SRC="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/06/images/20010630-2.jpg";
Bush: "Catch Mary Anne!"


Fox: I guess the proof of that pudding will come in 2008
Mary Anne: They are undermining the organism that supports them.
Mary Anne: 2008 is a long time from now.

You guys have written off 2004 already? Hmmm. Most interesting part of the post.

;-)


Fox: [undermining] Yes - which also makes me think of Nixon. The Constitution won that one
Mary Anne: Because the nation has never fallen, people tend to take for granted that it won't.
Fox: Well, sure.
Mary Anne: I find the combination of incipient economic crash, domestic attack on civil liberties, and imperial foreign adventuring by a group of business-savvy, intelligent, but morally shallow people to be frightening.

Now you're beginning to sound like Lindy. Economic crash? Domestic attack on civil liberties? Where are all those jack booted thugs hiding anyway? I wait longer in line at the airport. I read about terror alerts. You can get harassed easier if you are middle eastern and lead on a woman and her son while fake-talking about an impending terrorist attack.

Imperial foreign adventuring? Have you missed the past three thousand year history lesson?
Perhaps you have heard of these phrases:

"Roman Empire"
"The Empire upon which the sun never sets"
"Belgian Congo"
"French West Indies"
"Soviet Union"
"German Empire"
"OPEC"
"The United Nations"

Since when has any sizable nation on earth ever not had military conflicts or business affairs with other nations? Or for that matter exploited hostilities for personal gain?


Fox: I used 2008 because 2004 may not be time enough for the truth to overwhelm the wagging dog. If a hand-picked successor to Bush wins in 2008 - then you've got machine politics.
Mary Anne: Couple that with an American public whose grasp on reality has been fuzzed by the bleed-over known as "infotainment", and whose attention span is about half an hour, and the impending crisis trifecta looks to become grave.

Oooh! Sounds ominous! Trifecta!

Better yet: Trigamy between the dumb people and Imperious Bush!

Attention span of half an hour? Isn't that pushing it? It's more like seven and a half minutes.

Please tell me you haven't been spending your time here.


Fox: Are you reminded of the Gilded Age? I have been
Mary Anne: A little.
Fox: Even Davin seems to be reaching toward despair.


Davin's been in permanent despair mode since he arrived - it's called hypertension. It simply ruins the flow of a good post. ;-)


Mary Anne: I'm reminded more of the end of the Roman Republic, which bothers me.
Fox: Um, yes - because it was replaced with Empire.
Fox: And deification of the Emperor
Mary Anne: When my thoughts stray inordinately in a particular direction without specific factual underpinnings, it's because the smarter, but less articulate part of my brain has noticed something.


That... or it's the onset of a fever. ;-)


Fox: Yes.
Mary Anne: One thing is hopeful, though: When I think of George II, and then I think of Julius Caesar, the comparison makes me laugh.

Oops Caesar's reincarnated! Watch out!
I guess it's sort of funny. Comparing a megalomaniac with a pretty nice guy is amusing.


Fox: Well, yeah.
Mary Anne: George II is far too callow. Caesar was a genius. There are no geniuses in this group.
Fox: Caesar fought his own wars, too
Fox: I think Powell may qualify for genius, at least raw material - his years in the Army spoiled him, made him too much of a team player.


It's great how you underestimate these folks. The Administration is ripe with genius. From Cheney, Powell and Rice to Rumsfeld, Tenet and Rove - each has their own special gift to contribute to the administration.

First, you say the nation is heading towards doomsday - then you say the nation is about to be destroyed by a group of morons? If that were true - what does that say about the American people? Imbecilic?


Mary Anne: Our big problem isn't the war, though that is a tragedy and an abandonment of our tradition of fair play. It's not the first time we've behaved like beasts, though, and we've come out of those things chastened in the past.
Fox: ...and then we forget
Mary Anne: It's the other two combined: the economic crisis is promising to destabilize upward mobility. My contact, through inlaws, with the upper classes has taught me that they are different than the tough entrepreneurs that the Zone conservatives tout as the strong bones of our body politic.


Well naturally - east coast rich are wimpy, wimpy, wimpy! ;-)


Fox: [behaved like beasts] you ought to try some history of this region from, say 1850 to 1865. "General Order Number 11", for instance, as an analog to this century's "War on Terrorism"
Mary Anne: That class, not the hard workers, are the ones who are reaping the benefits of class calcification.
Fox: Yes - but they always have
Mary Anne: Add to that, the erosion of civil rights, and the erosion of support for civil rights, and we have the makings of a right collapse. The real reasons that people come here, the dual promise of a shot at prosperity and the right to be left alone, are under attack.
Mary Anne: I ought to be posting this, but I'm tired of arguing.
Mary Anne: They don't listen.

Way too pessimistic. You guys need a caffeine and sugar packed Starbucks latte.
The economy changes. Bad things happen - but also good things.

Big companies are "screwing" employees. What else is new?

The companies that discard sales and service eventually will go under. Torpedoed by their own shortsightedness and cheapness.

For example:
Maytag the "dependable" washer company now hires Mexicans at 2 dollars an hour to build what was being built at 16 dollars an hour in the US, just below Texas on the other side of the border. The product is now far from dependable and is now made almost entirely out of plastic - a far cry from the ceramics and metals used earlier.

Sears, a good old fashioned brick and mortar company, is being slowly killed by a parasite who is trying to build his (10%?) of all Sears stock and increase the value of the Stock by selling off the credit division for billions in cash, creating a liquid surplus which impressed the stock market. He is selling the land the stores are sitting on to return to leasing for even more liquid capital and he will jump ship with the company's wealth after he has boosted its stock value. The other stockholders will jump ship too and Sears cumulative wealth, built over a hundred years will largely go into the hands of a few parasites. Like the old monopoly game he is mortgaging everything for cash and will pass the mess on to a new "player" to try and recover.

So what? Such is the corporate mishmash which goes on daily throughout the nation.

If Maytag or Sears goes under - or simply lose most their market share - new companies will emerge and grow to take their place. More employees will be needed to build quality products and first minimum wage and then eventually 16 dollar an hour jobs will reappear. It's the nature of the market. New widgets are constantly being built and invented. When they connect with the public, supply and demand go to work and wealth is created.

In business one rides the waves. Staying in any one thing to long means you miss opportunities. When the telecommunications industry was hot - the sky was the limit. The same was true with the dot.coms. Railroads, cars, housing, property - all of these have had their moment in the sun. New gadgets like VCRs, DVDs, CDs, microwaves, Cell phones, computers, software - all these open new markets, employ hundreds of thousands of people and create wealth. Creativity is paramount to continued wealth development. If you are creative - you have many opportunities for acquiring wealth.

No need to get depressed about it - it's been going on forever and is chronicled well in our history books and magazines from yesteryear.


Fox: From my former viewpoint in Appalachia, I have to say that the 'class calcification' has been going on for longer than the current Administration.
Mary Anne: Yes.
Fox: [posting] Yes, you should - and no, they don't listen.
Fox: Have you considered the idea that perhaps a collapse is overdue?
Fox: That's cynically Jeffersonian of me, I know....
Fox: ...and I don't want to see one, either.
Mary Anne: -sigh-
Mary Anne: I think of this country as something of a miracle.
Mary Anne: We learch ahead, improvising as we go.
Mary Anne: My son has said that the American genius for self-organizing will save us.
Fox: I'd be inclined to listen to him.
Mary Anne: This administration is doing its very best to shut up all the voices that oppose it. Fox: Yes, it has
Mary Anne: This shuts down a very important engine in this process.
Fox: And that's intentional, too
Mary Anne: On the other hand, we may wind up with an entirely new group as a result of these efforts: liberal moderates who think that private gun ownership is a very good thing.
Fox: Like you, for instance?
Mary Anne: When the people in power think they can shut everyone else up, sometimes merely retaining the threat of rebellion is enough to give people the courage to speak up.
Fox: Or me, for that matter - not that I would own one myself, but...


Oh Oh...armed rebellion! But against what? Bush? Tom Ridge? Cheney? Taxation without representation? Some middle easterners held in Guantanamo? Military tribunals for terror suspects?

Somehow I think you've got this entirely blown out of proportion. Bush will be a memory like all presidents over time become memories. Kids today know diddly about Eisenhower. They know nothing of D-Day and not more than a handful of them no who Martin Van Buren was. They don't know about Alexander Hamilton and his sad demise or what he did for our banking industry.

In a hundred years Bush will be remembered only as the man who was President when the WTC was destroyed by terrorists - if he is lucky he may be remembered as the man who liberated Iraqis from a tyrannical regime. Most won't know who he is or care. The world will have larger and more pressing problems outside the United States and Bush will be ancient history.


Mary Anne: And you know, retaining the moral high ground only works as long as the people in power have enough morality to be embarrassed. I think we've passed that point.
Fox: Yes Mary Anne: They lie, and lie and lie.
Fox: They even lie about being moral.
Mary Anne: They actually are quite moral, as long as one gives them leave to write the rules. So were the Pharisees and the Sadducees. They wrote the glosses on the rule book, forgot the rules, and followed the glosses. This is what we have.
Fox: Very perceptive!
Fox: (don't forget the Money Changers)
Mary Anne: They not only don't look outside the box, they have furnished its interior and declared it the center of the universe.
Fox: worse: They have declared it to BE the Universe.
Mary Anne: Oh, not yet. There are those of us who live outside.
Mary Anne: We are lesser creatures, or devils, depending on the mood of the day.
Fox: ...or traitors
Mary Anne: devils
Fox: right
Fox: demonized
Mary Anne: yup


I don't know about devils or demons - but you are entertaining! I wish I could wring my hands about the state of the world - but that's a phase one goes through until one realizes that ALL change is both EQUALLY good and EQUALLY evil. ALL things have both good and evil. ALL events have both good and evil. The only thing you can control is you, your thoughts and your actions. All the rest is illusion. History of this tiny speck in an infinite universe is of SO little consequence from one perspective - and yet you get to see from another how important and all consuming it can be from another.

This world is but a whisper, an echo. All the people upon it are but passing streams of thought. For some this world is the present, for others the past, yet for others it will be their future.

By being positive about the events that happen one masters one's reactionary nature. Events have less sway and power over our consciousness. This is SOOOOO hard for folks to realize here. They do not see the harm in hate, anger or frustration. However if one is to become more infinite in nature - if one is to call the starry sky ones backyard - one cannot let what others do control one's own happiness or emotions. Disasters, death, destruction - all illusions. All lessons. All are but classes in developing your mentality, your compassion and your mind. One can die angry and bitter at the hands of an enemy - and find them incarnated as your father, husband or child. Isn't it better to turn the other cheek and realize their actions as manifestations of ignorance and their own particular mindset?

To hate Bush or his administration is to condemn yourself - not them.

Each condemns himself by his own actions. Each action and thought guides their course and destiny. Expansion or contraction? Will their mentality grow or retrogress? Will they learn to love all - even those who wish them harm? Or will they return hate with hate and weave an even tighter cocoon around both via consciousness harmonic affiliation and resonance?

Such ideas seems so foreign to the day-to-day life of everyone here. They can irritate and frustrate those who are hardpressed to see the good in what they have so long held as evil - or the evil in what they have held as good.

Bush, his actions, the US, the Earth - all but the most fleeting moments in time/space. However we are here and these things are added into our harddrives for posterity - that's why it's so important how one reacts. Later one will look back, much as one looks back at one's childhood and says "I let that upset me?" or "I was sure mean to so-n-so - that was stupid."

Republicans, Democrats, thigamajigs and whatyamacallits - all irrelevent to the greater lessons being learned; human relations, compassion, understanding, forgiveness, kindness, sharing...and love.

Politics is both good and bad and a this time with the level of the folks on this world it is perfectly suited to their development. As the masses of people evolve - so will their politics.

On that metaphysical note I will sign off.

SDAI-Tech1