"I still don't put England in the same category as France, Germany, Spain, or others. Don't think they do either'

I'm a Brit. Born in Chester, grown up in the Cotswolds, live in Leicester.

This country is part of Europe. So's Iceland. This isnt a judgment call of any sort. It's just a fact.

Now - ask people if they think they're European, and about 60% will say no - because we're informed by the mass media that we get a bad deal from the EU ( sadly the uninformed masses also believe it.)

Geographically or Politically - we're European. Culturally, we're not. But there is no judgement call here - we ARE part of Europe - there's just a growing movement of people who want to be 'in' Europe without being 'run' by Europe - but we ARE part of Europe.

f.w.i.w. - imposing Democracy on a Muslim nation is wrong by any standard - but the current Iraq elections are not even that - they're a murderous, violent mess that doesnt represent democracy at any level. Anyone who considers it 'success' that elections are happening in Iraq is deluded, and the people of the two countries who made this happen ( UK and US ) should be ashamed imho. We've done the wrong thing, and we've really REALLY screwed up doing it as well.