Flame — HabitableZone

Flame » in reply to It's art. It can be drivel to you.

"yes, but is it art?"
Daniel — (archived)

So's this! -

http://www.ncac.org/images/SeparationAnxietyII.JPG


("Separation Anxiety II", from here

This issue is not at all political for me, nor am I narrow-minded or unduly judgmental. But the line of quality has to be drawn somewhere. Probably for me that line is the border between modernism and post-modernism. For more than 30 years I have been immersed in modernist high-art in music, which most people find unlistenable: Stravinsky, Schoenberg, Webern, Stockhausen. I can use the last as an example of what I mean. Stockhausen, who is still alive and composing at 77, started his career in 1951. He was a contemporary of John Cage, and they knew each other well. But Cage was a post-modernist, by which I mean he built his 'pieces' only around gestures and their ironic signficance. The most famous example is "4 minutes 33 seconds", in which the pianist sits at the piano for that time period and does absolutely nothing.

... well, at least that piece wouldn't be hard to practise ...

Stockhausen otoh, has for 50+ years composed has composed highly original and innovative stuff which as I say, sounds to many people like water going down a drain .. but the difference is, it has real meaning, derived from intricate structure and extraordinary acoustic intuition, and is motivated by deep religious feeling

Acknowledged I am making personal judgements here, but since the 70s as a teenager I could always tell quality from garbage, eg -

the difference between Beethoven and say, his contemporary composer Peter von Winter. BTW Beethoven was described by one contemporary reviewer as a 'musical terrorist' ..

the difference between Schoenberg and his imitator Josef Hauer. BTW a doctor testified in a Viennese court of law at the time, that Schoenberg's music was dangerous to physical health.

the difference between Stockhausen and Steve Reich, or for that matter John Cage.

- It has something to do with the presence of real substance and meaning in a work, which is apparent even at first listening, and which always grows with repeated listenings.

Finally: I agree with Tom's point that Owen's poetry shows just what can be expressed WITHOUT having to climb down into the gutter and gleefully roll around in the crap down there.

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