Killing innocent Iraqis is wrong. It was wrong for their government to do it, it is wrong for our government to do it. Seems reasonable to me.

Me too, guy. Over at Current Vents recently, I offered the opinion that maintaining that Saddam's killing and worse of his own people made our lesser damage to them "OK" was, in fact, some of that moral relativism that Right claims to despise. Instead of deceiving ourselves that we're perfectly good because Saddam is worse, we ought to acknowlege our unclean hands, and accept responsibility. Once we get past that blind spot of arrogant moral smugness and self-righteousness, we'll at least have a chance to talk about the reality of the war and the justifications/rationalizations for it.

I'm also saying that anyone who believes killing more innocent Iraqis will somehow atone for the Kurds is a hypocrite. I'm adding that anyone who claims their heart bleeds for Kurds now and didn't in 1988, and 1989, 1990, etc. is a phony.

Forgive me for pointing this out, but Tom often makes the mirror-image argument, that "anti-war" people were silent on the subject in the 90s, and silent about the other crimes of other dictators. I'd say to both of you that you're putting forth a straw man argument, in that you're attributing an extreme point of view to people whose views are actually more nuanced.

Frankly, I believe that my experience at the urging of another American President who was also wrong, where more innocent people were killed in a misguided effort at "liberation", I believe that card trumps her "I have a friend who blah blah blah and I think we should kill some more people" card.

Well, Bowser, I acknowledge that you have firsthand experience in another war with similar deep moral questions. But isn't it a bit, having trouble finding the right word, "small", maybe, to compete with Marcia over whose personal experiences are more horrific? This isn't a competition. Can you recognize that people can learn different lessons from similar experiences?

I treated her a bit harshly in my post. Parts of it were condescending, insulting and certainly NOT constructive. Didn't intend for those to be constructive, I meant for them to convey my opinion. It was on the Flame Board,

Yes you did, and yes this is the Flame board. What I was trying to say is that you're spending your capital on somebody who isn't the biggest villain in your pantheon here...

eb, Dan Spires, Scott, Matt Burley

There you go...perhaps your real beef is with them, but you struck out at Marcia just because she was nearby?

What was it Barry Goldwater said about extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice and wussiness in defense of liberty is no virtue? Or something like that. I don't know that I'd want to be the kind of person who didn't have a lot of energy for these matters.

I wouldn't want you to lose that energy, Bowser. I'm trying to be helpful, in suggesting that if you direct it like a rifle to its target, instead of dispersing it over a wide area like a grenade, you might get more mileage. I have to tell you frankly, that your credibility has been deteriorating over the last couple of months as your rage has visibly increased. If people tune you out, you'll lose the opportunity to change minds, and then you'll simply waste that energy.

Make it count.

--Robert