Hi Gary,

...that Athenian democracy never truly died and that their culture and lifestyle lives on in many cultures still to this day - including the US and much of europe.

What fatally weakened Athens was their fixation with homosexuality as being some sort of divine true relationship. Their birthrate plummeted and eventually the population simply couldn't defend itself against outside invaders. They had to buy soldiers and mercenaries from neighboring regions to help them fight their battles. Eventually as population growth occured elsewhere, but remained stagnant in Athens, they were so weakened as to invite attack.

Sparta was a homo-centric society as well, with older men picking out young boys to "train" - however, they knew the value of children and threw unmarried men and women past a certain age into a dark room to pick their new spouse. Only men who had fathered children were given the ultimate respect of their peers. A logical and natural development for a warring band of homosexuals.

All over europe and even in the US - caucasoid birthrates are declining. The further removed from savage* one becomes, and the more developed and complicated one's society and leisure is - the lower the birth rate becomes.

So now europe and the US is being overrun by high birthrate peoples. (It is just a bizarre coincidence their home nations' culture is less evolved and their nations are less wealthy! ;-)

However, the savages soon take up the lifestyles of the ones they conquer, or overwhelm, as they continue to evolve. Democracy eventually conquered the Goths, the Vandals and the other invaders of Rome - which itself was simply a perverted version of Athens.

Yes, civilization is a set of ideas it can be passed upon even if the nation that developed and nurtured these ideas is burned to the ground and salt has been ground into the earth.

An excellent example of this is the story of Yeliu Chutsai - an aide to the emperor of China prior to the mongol invasion.

When the others fled before Genghis Khan - Yeliu remained in the palace and was found by the Khan's men.

His fearlessness impressed the Khan and he became Genghis Khan's assistant and a liaison between the conquered Chinese people and the mongols.

Yeliu was a crafty fellow. Every chance he got he impressed upon the need for culture - for enjoying things like fine silk clothing or ornamental brocade. He taught the Khan's sons and impressed upon them the appreciation for luxury and learning.

Yeliu made certain that when remote towns were plundered and burned - care was made not to destroy any maps or scrolls. These were returned to the palace and soon Genghis Khan had the largest collection of geographic knowledge and collected wisdom as could be found anywhere on earth at this time.

Some folks thought Yeliu was a traitor to his people. However, Yeliu is one of history's greatest heroes. For Kublai Khan soon gave up the horseman lifestyle of the Mongols - and indeed had been converted into a leader in the Chinese mold!

This saved Europe from being conquered. The mongols unstoppable power had finally been beaten - yet not with force of arms - but simply an appreciation of culture and ideas.
Yeliu held a philosophy of being resistant - by being non-resistant to the mongol hordes.

Sure the Iraqi and Afghani masses are still backwards. Sure most of the middle east is backwards. However, given enough time - and a few folks devoted to impressing these ideas upon the minds in these regions - democracy and civilization will prevail, even if its locale and center-point keeps changing.

Just my 25 cents,

SDAI-Tech1

*This is not meant to imply any race is superior or inferior. History favored intellectual and cultural development in some areas and not in others.