"I can't really argue these points any more. The talking points of this war have been ossified to the point where any time I try to bring up what would have happened if we had left Iraq alone for the next thirty years, everybody's brain shuts down."

This is a dodge. You in essence accusr me of speaking from a playbook, inferring along the way that you are some sort of free thinker on this topic. Well, your positions have not deviated from the so-called 'neocon' line for the duration of the last 4 years. Just like that line, you have been entirely incorrect on every count concerning Iraq. So if you want to complain about 'talking points' being 'ossified' and 'brains shutting down', I suggest you look critically at what you have said vs the actual outcomes over the last 4 years.

"At best I get fingers in the ears and cheap shots about SF and fantasy."

No- they are not cheap shots. Its basic reasoning skills. Its also absurd- Iraq has been a tragedy, calamity and a comedy all rolled into one. We know that THIS SET OF ACTIONS has put our ship of state in a horrible mess.

What you want to do is claim that we had no viable alternative to running ourselves aground in Iraq. To support this, you want to argue some silly concocted fantasy alternate-histories, which you insist would be so bad that what we actually did would look good. Thats not only fallacious argument, its just plain stupid.

"Where do you WANT the wars to be? Because wistful thinking aside, they aren't going to just leave us be. At some point, your side will, someday, have to come up with a real answer instead of just flinging bottles from the stands."

Yes- wistful thinking. You who has yet to be right about anything in Iraq, You who wants to justify a failed actual foreign policy by creating ficticious ones, you who invents a 'side' for me and than argues against that 'side' instead of arguing with me- you talk about wistful thinking and how m 'side' just can't get it right. Good grief.

"The ruthless beating the civilized, with the ruthless, as usual, getting all the good press."

So this is what you will take away from this fiasco: Be more ruthless, and it was all the fault of the press that we 'lost'.You get enough people pushing that line, and the terrorists won't need to do a damn thing to destroy either america or american civilization.

DL