Please don't have the arrogance to tell me what I presuppose. I would welcome learning something here and reasoning through propositions to enrich my understanding of the world. Because I am new here, I have been somewhat restrained. I am capable of playing the game and if you need a henchman in SDAI-Tech, I will address his concerns also. All I ask is that you attempt a degree of intellectual honesty. 'Nuff said, let's go.

>"I will grant that some things exist now because they were spurred by government programs But that does not mean they never would have existed otherwise, or that, more likely, more cost-effective alternatives would have been found."

I see the statement, but I must have missed the page where the examples were. Surely, you don't expect me to take this on faith?

>" I'm sorry, but most massive government projects are ineffective, expensive, and primarily a means of passing funds to supporters. The few that actually pay for themselves are quite rare. "

Actually I gave you a pretty good listing of effective programs and should have added Social Security as an effective program.

>"Just to detail one example: Do you think rural America would still be without electricity without government subsidies? Perhaps farmers would have formed cooperatives to run the lines. Oh yeah--they did this in many areas. Maybe other solutions would have been found."

And perhaps cows would have learned to fly.

>"All your other examples fall into the same category. Had not government funding been available to create certain solutions, alternatives would have been found."

Again with the exercise of faith. Tell me about the evidence of things not see, the substance of that which is not known.

>" Just because the government DID pay for something, it does not automatically follow that it would never have existed otherwise."

Granted, but you must admit for the sake of argument, you are reaching.For a little more background on Eli Whitney, see here:

>".. historian Ken Alder takes us to Paris in 1790 [1]. Gunsmith Honoré Blanc had made a thousand muskets and put all their parts in separate bins"

This was both informative and interesting, but doesn't negate the fact that government can be effective and used to benefit its citizens.

.>"Whitney was faking it."

Whoa, a capitalist entreprenuer was less than honest and was exploitive.

>"I'm not sure where you got the idea that no one would be working on biotechnology without government funds."

Just looking at the record, the private sector has only gone where profits were apparent.

>. "The computer industry has been doing just fine advancing circuit technology on its own."

Granted, this is part of the point I have been trying to make. Government is an important part of the social equation. In this case Government developed the internet and created a market for the computer industry. This is a great example of how government is capable of leading the way for common benefit.

>"The government has thoroughly metastasized itself into every aspect of the private sector, and to pretend we can suddenly create libertarianism out of this is a fantasy."

Finally a position I can understand. I have great appreciation for the libertarian philosophy. Here is an intellectual honesty that I can disagree with and still respect. This is not true of the Republican party however.

>"The whole gist of your line of thought is that somehow all the intelligence, the forward-thinking visionaries, the "big picture" guys, reside in Washington, DC and other government centers.."

Not so. Actually I find it sad that government has such dubious talent attached to it. Government should be an engine that works for the society and makes that society better and more just. All members of society should be served by government and not just the special interests and corporate elites. We can have whatever government we want in this country. If we have any argument with our government, we should seek to change it, refine it, and make it better able to seve its citizens.

*>Needless to say, this is a touchy subject on a Space Board."

What is, an attempt to search for reality, truth, like it as Sein und Dasein?