"That maybe an invasion is actually the best option at this point? Not just the only workable one?"

Tom, as far as I can see its the ONLY option the Bush admin has discussed, considered, attempted or aired. As an option it does not stand up on its own merits. It does not stand to reason. It does not wash.

Sure, I am wrong most of the time- EVERYONE is, or we would be inheriting the stars by now. Humans (me included) are very limited in our ability to really grasp reality, and absolute truth is a really rare bird.

Now, having said that, if this War option can not and does not stand up to investigation, then it is the wrong thing to do. We should not believe in the correctness of something simply for a lack of competing options. Thtas not sound.

"maybe we can start tossing these wastes of oxygen out one by one. "

Look, iof thats what we were doing, I would reconsider my position. The problem is that we are continuing to aid a host of other evil oxygen-wasters WHILE attacking this one.

"At what point does tolerance of the suffering of populations under tyranny end? Where does the "sovereign right" of a nation stop? "

Again, This doesnt wash. Why are we supporting so many OTHER monsters, many with WMD, and going after only this one? Because he is not our monster anymore while the other ones sit in our lap AND kill their own people? Tom, you see the BS here, Right?

"When a man is beating his kids in his house, maybe killing them, does he have a right to tell the cops outside to respect his private property? And then what if the cops aren't doing the job anyway? On the take, or crooks themselves?"

Tom, we went through the cops analogy before, and even you reckoned it didn't work out.

"Vigilante is an ugly word, and an unpleasant concept. The function of law is to place the inherent right of using force in self-defense under the rule of objective laws. Otherwise, you get gang warfare, and everyone making their own rules as they go along"

And it is even uglier and frightening when the vigilante is the most well armed, most well-off, most powerful country on the planet. This sets off the 'despot' alarms world-over, even if it is a false alarm, and turns people the workld over against us and our interests.

"The U.N.--the supposed cops--is corrupt itself."
I'm sure you'll hate the source, but here is the record of our votes at the UN. Cross check that record with sources you DO like. We might be able to argue away these point by point into something that looks like something other than an elephant, but what do you expect the rest of the world sees when they add this record up? Hmmm?

Call us Long John Silver or call us Lone Ranger or whatever. It gets pretty thin wen we can't sell this war to ANYONE except Britain, who long ago cast its lot with the US and NOT the EU and has no choice but to go with us.

When most of the scholars, many of the old generals, a majority of the literate people around the world, most of the mid-east experts even within our government are saying that this war is a baaad idea... At what point should we not take heed and at least discuss the case on its merits? Of course, EVERYONE could be wrong. But you think if they were then simple reason and empirical judgement would demonstrate a clear case for war... BUT IT DOESN'T!

"This needs a lot of thought."

YES! Tom! It does. Why not give the same thought to this war in the first place? Why not!?

Davin