There are people who have accomplished all those things, and made something of themselves. Some with help, for sure, but all with a determination to do something about their circumstances.

There are plenty of ways life can throw something at you hard. Poverty can certainly be the result of something that happens to you, and that isn't your fault. But letting it keep you down and making yourself into a professional victim? You have something to say about that.

The examples given in earlier posts, particularly the one from England, are physical and psychological parasites, seemingly incapable of volition, and the fear expressed is that the welfare culture tends to select for such people and encourage them.

Any system that is really intended to help people get out of poverty or other bad circumstances will encourage independence. Do current systems do this? In England or here? Are we teaching fishing or passing out fish?

Independence is not what some politicians want. There is power in dependence. I still believe that part of our welfare problem is political, not financial. This isn't going to change as long as taxpayers and welfare recipients have the same vote.

"Teach a man to fish, and he doesn't need you any more. Give him a fish a day, and he'll be yours forever."

- A politician's reworking of an old saying.