Okay, I didn't read through to here before I replied. I retract the 'arguing with true-believers' line, sorry.

"I'm not saying all dissent about the war is futile or irrelevant. Arguments that we don't have enough troops for future needs are legitimate, if without easy answers. Outrage at the prison abuses was not inappropriate, even if it was used mostly as a political weapon. There are other issues as well that can be addressed, honest criticism about how the war is being conducted now. Hopefully, criticism from the point of view of someone who wants our side to win.

But at what point does saying "we shouldn't be there" finally start to get a bit old?
"

Last point first: One of the reasons we are in trouble in Iraq relates to the faulty politics, and faulty tinking that got us into this war. I think part of getting out alive this decade is going to rely upon re-evaluating why we went there. I think that that evaluation is blocked by a 'human shield' of partisan true believers- but we have been through those arguments a thousand times and its not like we'll get traction with eacher on time 1001.

The notion that the Left doesn't want our side to win is dangerous, devisive and stupid. It does nothing to further the dabate here or anywhere in the country. Its part of the nelsonization of debate. I really am sad that you take that notion seriously, and the very fact that you do indicates to me that I probably can't disabuse you of that notion. But I suppose I could try if you want to get into that argument.

I appreciate that you actually recognize that any critism of the war plans, aims and conduct is legitimate. However, I have never seen you accept any criticism leveled here by anyoone as legitimate. Perhaps this will change.

Here is my major constructive criticism of the war. Lets see if you get hyperbolic and indignant (as per earlier) and appeal to ridicule, or if you discuss it reasonably. I still point out that I am just the equivalent of a Plumber logging on to a multi-tiered enterprise web app and noticing it doesn't work. IE: I can clearly see that things are not working, but I don't have the expertise to fix them, in all their subtleties. Here is the best I can do from my perspective:

1) We don't have a clearly defined victory point. When our administration says 'a stable free Iraq', what does he mean? An end to the insurgency? One election conducted by armed convoy, largely boycotted, and executed only in a few metrpolitan areas? A period of stability like post-war germany, where the troops slowly convert from an occupying power to a billited forward deployment?

An exit point has to be clearly established. I think articulating such a point to the Iraqis might at least help prevent them from joining up with the insurgency. I think it would have been much better if we had done this a year ago, but we need to take whatever help we can get.

2) We don't have realistic plans for occupation. We keep on believing, and have for a long time, that we can shift the burden of suppressing civil unrest to 'Iraqi Police forces', but we have a long and well documented failure to finance the training and equipping of those police forces. We don't work to protect them, either. We don't arm them sufficiently or train them sufficiently, and then don't protect them when they have become a major target of the insurgency.

We need to, now, immediately, make the Iraqi Police the main goal of our financial 're-building' of Iraq. If that takes more money- oh well. If that takes higher txes: so be it. Screw the tax cut, I don't want to be fighting Gulf War III in the mideast in 20 years.

3) We have and continue to have an absurd notion about how many troops this will take and for how long.

Recruit Recruit Recruit: Double the pay of the army, offer better benifits. We may naievly believe we'll be there just a few more months, but I think that if we really think we can leave in the next year without leaving a bloodbath behind, then we're being really dumb.

Beg borrow or steal troops from our formerly insulted allies, even if it is just logistical support from outside the country. Anything.

Look to the help of Arab neighbors. As much as I hate it.

Consider a draft. As much as I hate it

4) Stop the pretense that are war aims are "fighting global terrorism" and that we are "stabilizing the mideast" or "bringing a new order to the area". As long as we are trying to work in that direction, then were fighting phantoms.

Instead, clearly articulate that our war aims are now "A stable Iraq" followed by an "Exit of american forces from the country'.

5) Recognize that the insugency is a home-grown phenomenon with foreign elements, not the other way around. Every time we crack a town or an area open only to fint 90% local folks and 10% foreigners, its sort of stupid to say "Well the foreigners snuck out the night before". Its Yeti reasoning again. The WMD are not there because they destroyed/hid/moved them.

Deal with containg the insurgency as a civil unrest matter, not as a combatting foreign terrorists matter. We'll have much more success.

6) For god sakes, get out as soon as possible so we can at least credibly thereaten Iraq and N. Korea if they decide to go 1938 on us.

Davin L.