Bush did not lie
Remains to be seen. I hope he didn't

Saddam did lie
Is this a justification for war? Of course he lied. Nobody contests his dishonesty...

Evidence of WMD has been found
Really, do tell: where? Source, Quote and Fact? Or did the Yeti whisper it in your ear this morning?

The war went better than planned
Funny what happens when you fight a demoralized third world country with 21st century technology and warfighting lessons.

Seems guerilla warfare is still going on, though, killing soldiers every day. So does that fall under better then expected?

"Reconstruction will take time, and will not be easy, but the Iraq people are better off now."

I see. They are better off because they are liberated?
Is being under the complete control of a few hundred thousand forces liberation?

I know, they must be better off because they are safe from being shot dead in the street by thugs for no reason
Now they are shot dead in the streets by armed thugs who are on a looting rampage or are rioting against US occupation.

No! They are better off because they live in a stable country!!!
One that does not have water, electricity, basic infrasturctre, police and etc

HA! They are better off because its not Saddam who is oppressing them and making their life miserable

Instead their life is miserable for other reasons. And Saddam is still alive and well and waiting in the wings- eager to return to his old passtime of killing Iraqis

That Saddam is/was a bad man- This is true. But Saddam being a bad man does not justify our invasion. That he was a cruel bastard does not mean that the Iraqis are necessarily better off because of what we did. We have to make that happen, and the burden is on us. So far, its not been a stunning success. So far, I see no reason to believe that another dictator isn't just waiting in the wings for us to depart so he can move in and brutalize a whole new generation.

You are right, we probably will never agree on this- and it is most likely pointless. You think I am too polarized on this issue because I hate Bush? I supported Bush in Afghanistan entirely, up until recent months when everything outside Kabul went to pot.

I'd prefer to think I refuse to call a spade a diamond. And I have a naive faith that if I defend a case and demonstrate the truth of it, expose the falsity of contradicting cases, and do so over and over and over and over in a public forum- that in the end it will mean something. In the end reasonable people will agree, or at least for a moment question their position.

But I guess not. I suppose it just gets me called nasty names (not directed at you, REB) and makes me bitter and pissy. So I guess, in then end: there is no point to any of this. I suppose my insistance on fact dictating what we call truth just makes some folks think I am arrogant. Man, suffer the scientists! This is all very depressing to me. Whats the point of trying to be rational when reason fails to sway the folks who claim to be reasonable?

Davin L.