Matt wrote: " just think you may be underestimating the tremendous value and benefit to the Middle East, the Muslim world, and US national security in having a free and progressive Iraqi nation spring up in place of what was one of the world's most despotic regimes."

Perhaps- But I do understand what a great day for the mideast that will be. However, I don't think that end justifies our means, and I also think that the path we have chosen (military inposition and occupation) is likely to fail, and if it succeeds, it will tarnish whatever value to the mid-east a Democratic Secular Iraq would bring. The Middle-east has a remarkable way of undermining any nation that associates with the west and/or turns its back on 'classic' caliphite or 'modern' fundamentalist modes of government.

If the Mid-east is to have that shining diamond, it must build it for itself- our role is advisor and consultant- not jack-booted soldier in their streets.

Matt wrote: "I see no reason why the new Iraq can't evolve into another Turkey, a developed secular democratic state coexisting with a Muslim society."

Turkey should not be held out as an example. Perhaps the only reason they are a secular state is the repeated intervention of their military. Shariat has been literally voted-in a few times by the 'enlightened' Turkic masses... Unfortunately for the middle-east, its difficult to find a modern or historical example of egalitarian enlightenmnet. They never had anything quite like a renaissance, like Europe- but instead a steady ebb-and-flow of relative standing of their civilization. Many times they were the most 'civilized' place on the planet, and many times they were one of the most 'barbaric' (loaded terms for sure). And yes, the Crusades and the ascendency of Europe were two blows that really floored their civilization. Mohammad should probably be pointed to as a root cause of their plight as well, but I'm sure that would get me crucified in some circles ;-).

matt wrote: "One thing's for sure - the US and UK troops can't come home until they recruit and train Iraqi security forces and then turn their jobs over to them. And the sooner the better, I think you'd agree with that. "

Yep. Lets just pray that is even in the cards at this point. I have my doubts.

Davin L.