Barry wrote: As you must know Raoul, most of the bickering on this board is started by Mars Society members who cannot handle a conversation involving the issue of life on Mars or planetary protection. They resort almost always to name calling and insults. I fire back and defend. They do not want to hear anything I say -- so I post the abstracts and papers of professional scientists so they will have to take their arguments to their level, which is wehn the insults start.

Chris writes: Right Barry, you can't complain that you are having trouble starting a new thread and also claim to be first in a thread. Someone starts a thread unrelated to planetary protection and you post a cut and paste job over and over thru out the thread. As I recall it you called me a liar for saying the Mars Society was in part supporting Beagle II. In support of your name calling you then did another cut and paste job leaving out the Pillinger's praise of the Mars Society and clarification on what was needed to be done by us to become sponsors. I asked Barry for proof we didn't do as Pillinger suggested in the article. I haven't heard back on that.

Barry wrote: I was a member of the Mars Society in 2000, but after I found out what a useless organization it was (mainly it seemed as an excuse to "exclusively" sell Dr. Zubrin's books about Mars at their conventions - they were in boxes at every door at the convention and no other speaker weas allowed to sell their books) and how they were in denial about planetary protection issues and life on Mars, so I decided not to renew my membership. The feeling I got was that most of the people that attend these conventions might also go to Star Trek conventions. That's fine -- but let's not call this thing about running around in canvas sapce suits real science. This is theatre - a publicity stunt involving hundreds of thousands of dollars to draw the media and the general public into a awareness to fund a human mission to Mars. I prefer my tax dollars to be spent on the real ongoing robotic missions to Mars until the life issue is settled, not some dinner theatre troup pretending they are living on Mars in the Utah desert. The scientists in Antarctica have demonstrated survival in much harsher conditions and without canvas spacesuits.

Chris writes: Barry I've attend all five conventions and you are in fact are lying about Zubrin's book being at every door during the 2000 convention or for that matter at any of them! Bob's books where at one table with one person selling them! Univelt books was selling books as was several other individuals. Anyone can go online and see the various abstracts over the 5 years and longer that the Mars Underground and the Mars Society have existed and they will find many different points of view on planetary protection presented and denial is a subjective concept. All I can say is middle aged engineers and scientist on vacation in Toronto, gees they looked like tourists to me. I've attend lots of conventions and conferences and anyone at any one of them could have been attending a SF Cons. I don't get your point. As I predicted Barry mentions canvas and real science as if peer review papers aren't "real science" or that an analog spacesuit's composition is critical to it's use in making real science. Again with the pointless comparisons of research in the Antarctic and Utah. How harsh the environment is has nothing to do with what research is being done at Hanksville. If they where doing Human Factors studies on a tight budget and needed spacesuits they would be making their own analog spacesuits just as we have. Exactly what would you thing is a good analog for an TMG used on Mars. Nylon, cotton, Kevlar or maybe silk? Actually some engineering folks think an series of layers like a Arctic suit of sorts might fit the bill.

Barry wrote: Finally, I have been observing the moon and planets all my life with various sizes of telescopes. This year I will be photographing the great opposition of Mars with my 10" Meade LX5. I wonder how many of the Mars Society people are actually observers and have telescopes as well? When I was invivted as a guest speaker to the Toronto Mars Society Convention in 2000, no one I spoke with seemed to have a telescope to look at Mars. I thought this was odd considering the lengths they go through to send people there.

Chris writes: I don't quite understand your logic here? Lots of folks in the Mars Society have telescopes (mine is an old 4" newtonian). There will be a star party at the Convention. I do this Star Party every few years at a place called Table Mountain and there you will see thousands of people with telescopes and most of these folks spend most of their free time doing nothing but observing... I've a friend who is a professional astronomer he owns no telescopes and rarely looks thru an eyepieces of those he uses... I've another friend who is a scientist who worked on the Viking Landers MET science he has no telescope that I know of...he's to busy working on sending spacecraft to Mars.

--Chris Vancil