Ed Wrote: NASA's problem is simply that Mars is not Earth-like and that has been known by the general public since 1965 - though a few "Mars enthusiasts" like those found here still cling to an Earth-like Mars, as some do to a flat-Earth.

Chris writes: Flat Earthers? Just like we are Cargo Cultists... You only focus on that part of history that fits your delusions, Ed. Try fitting Mariner 9 and Viking into your grand delusion ... they don't fit! The truth is more complex than your delusions, Ed. Mars has been both a Moon like place and a place with oceans and rivers and pretty much is an enigma. That is why it is interesting not because of it's earthlyness, but because of it's question marks. Still, it does help that it looks like the desert southwest and not a very dirty Kansas...eerily lite at night with floodlights! The Public don't care one way or the other in the big scheme of things about the Moon or Mars. They are just places far away and inaccessible like Mt. Everest or the Marinas Trench just more so.

Ed wrote: That is why work was stopped in 1965 on manned Mars ships. That is why production of the Saturn class launchers was stopped. That is why development of nuclear rocket engines was stopped. The general public couldn't care less about sending men to the real Mars.

Chris writes: Saturn V's were canceled because of Mariner 4? You call us delusional yet come up with this silly nonsense? No metal was ever bent on any manned Mars mission circa 1965 and the cancellation of NERVA had nothing to do with either the cancellation of a non existing program or Mariner 4's low resolution images of Mars. What the public could care for has virtually nothing to do with the space program. You think the public strongly supported the STS or ISS? Or it mattered if they did?

Ed wrote: Now although these facts have been recognized by serious space analysts for several years now, at least since my note on "Viking at 25", the Mars Enthusiasts simply can not accept them, just as they can not accept that Mars is not Earth-like.

Chris writes: Name one serious person who has accepted any of this BS! Where is your evidence for any of your claims, Ed? Show us where we see Mars as Earth like and in what why this is wrong. You're the one not willing to except the physics. Your the one not willing to change his views in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Ed wrote: The shuttle was intended to reduce launch costs to the point at which it would still make sense to the general public to fly manned Moon and Mars missions. But the shuttle's design was flawed, mainly through the politically forced adoption of solid fueled motors instead of liquid fueled ones. If liquid fueled motors had of been used for the shuttles, US dominance of the launch industry would have been unchallengable, due to the economies of scale provided by the use of those boosters as stand alone launch vehicles...

Chris writes: You don't know what you are talking about. The costs have to do with the standing army needed to service the shuttle and the unrealistic turnaround projected in the 1970s. This has to do with the system in total not the SRB alone!

Ed wrote: Of course, trying to discuss this amid all the noise of some "CATS" is difficult. The Congress has been faced with the problem of trying to conduct serious discussion about space architectures and public policy amid these idiots' rantings. The result has been the trashing of the reputations of many good people, and the trashing of the US space industry, as US space market sector share has fallen and fallen amid the noise of these idiots' shoutings...

Chris writes: Who's rantings? Are you talking about yourself? You're not calling Wes Huntress an idiot? Did you read any of the testimony solicited by those serious congressmen?

Ed wrote: Fortunately, both the two Mars Exploration Rovers, Beagle, and Mars Express are all scheduled to arrive at Mars early next year. The data they return about Mars should put an end to this noise real fast.

Chris writes: This is a good example of Ed's logic. He think like Barry that these mission will prove him right...like Pathfinder did....Viking did...Mariner 9 did... Ed here hasn't a clue what we are about...if there is or is not not life Mars doesn't matter. Mars will still be interesting and people will tune in to see the adventure unfold. It would be nice if the MER had cameras like Pathfinder to give us the point of view of a traveller with Sojourner, but still it will be exciting non the less. This is one thing NASA seems unable to understand the POV as a frame of reference in important...

Ed wrote: In the meantime, both the President and the elected representatives will see to the welfare of those who have entrusted it to them. In short, the general public has no intention of going the way of the dinosaur, whatever the rantings of the Mars enthusiasts.

Chris in wonder writes: Gees, what can I say with this sort of logic... Let us imagine the POTUS and the public gives a damn about Ed's chicken little worries... They sure are not pressing for a protection scheme from impending incoming asteroids nor are they pressing for a Moonbase for this reason.

Ed wrote: That is why the engineers' recommendations for Moon based telescopes will be accepted as a national goal.

Chris writes: Non of those engineers are being called before the committee or any committee, but they did call Zubrin and Huntress... So the question is...when, Ed? Not tomorrow or the next day... If you can't see your own delusions how could you possibly see others?