I am largely finished with this debate here on the Zone, having watched the entire right side (the majority) of the zone degenerate into a grade schooler who has stuck his fingers in his ear and is chanting "NoNonoNoNoNo".

Despite my infrequency of posts over the last 2 months, I have been following along, and what I see is otherwise brilliant people being complete and total fools. This is awful. Let me show you why I think this.

The claim(s) before the war was that

1) Saddam had stockpiles of weapons of mass destriuction. Not only did he have them, but we had definite knowledge of their location (tikriti, and areas north of Baghdad according to rumsfeld). Not only where, but how much was claimed as known, down to Tonnes Litres, Gallons. (According to Powell)
2) Saddam had active programs for production of said weapons
3) Saddam had active programs for the acquisition and manufacture of Nuclear Fissile weapons and materials. Including that Saddam may be 6 months away from 'the bomb' (According to Bush and Cheney)
4) That Saddam had allies in international terrorism, namely AL-Qaeda, and was conspiring to transfer WMD to those allies for use upon americans. (According to Bush, Cheney, Rice, Powell, Rumsfeld )
5) That saddam had developed unmanned drones that could spraw WMD on american soil if transported to just shy of our borders (Powell)

BECAUSE ON 1,2,3,4 and 5: We have to go to war with Iraq.

1 through 5 have not been shown to be true. Not at all, yet 1 through 5 are claimed to be truthful statements, and are 'proven' true by these quotes as cited by Tom (and I have read the Kay reports. What Tom cites is by far and away the most 'definite' statements Kay can make in his entire sorry sack of a 'report')

Kay: " Saddam, at least as judged by those scientists and other insiders who worked in his military-industrial programs, had not given up his aspirations and intentions to continue to acquire weapons of mass destruction. Even those senior officials we have interviewed who claim no direct knowledge of any on-going prohibited activities readily acknowledge that Saddam intended to resume these programs whenever the external restrictions were removed. Several of these officials acknowledge receiving inquiries since 2000 from Saddam or his sons about how long it would take to either restart CW production or make available chemical weapons."

Lets look at this:
Kay" Saddam, at least as judged by those scientists and other insiders who worked in his military-industrial programs, had not given up his aspirations and intentions[...]

Is this claim 1,2,3,4 or 5? Is it physical evidence that demonstrates the truth of propositions 1,2,3,4 or 5? Is it even empirical material support for propositions 1,2,3,4 or 5? No, it is not.

It is 'judged by scientisits and insideres... Had not given up intentions to acquire WMD'

Thats all it is. Its statements by individuals that Saddam intended to restart his WMD program. In fact, it has to suppose that the WMD programs were NOT active in order to have any positive supporting effect whatsoever!! IE: You can't consult with 'scientists' about 'restarting' an active and successful WMD program.

I have heard statements from individuals and insiders that Bush knowingly misrepresented the 'intelligence' on this issue and mislead the nation into war intentionally and without excuse.

But, of course, for the 'Right' here at the zone- thats just BUSH HATING BS. So I guess the Integrity level here is so high that Supposition and hearsay that conforms to your belief system is counted as fact, while everything else of the same level of veracity is counted as heresy. Damn pathetic. You all should be emberassed.

Yes, but let me hold on here. Lets look at this other Cherry Tom picked to throw at the 'absurd' left. Maybe I am about to see the light...

Kay:"In the delivery systems area there were already well advanced, but undeclared, on-going activities that, if OIF had not intervened, would have resulted in the production of missiles with ranges at least up to 1000 km, well in excess of the UN permitted range of 150 km. These missile activities were supported by a serious clandestine procurement program about which we have much still to learn.
"

Does this relate to claims 1,2,3,4 or 5? Only remotely does it address #5, the construction of systems that could deliver Chemical or Biological weapons to the US and thereby pose a threat so great that inspections had to be discontinued and wholesale slaughter endorsed.

But take note, this is no new discovery. We already knew that a variant of the Al-Samoud-II could fly past prohibited distances. How did we find this out? The so-called worthless and unreliable inspections! How did we eliminate this threat? Through the Inspections!

And please take note: Inaccurate Theater Balistic Missiles are worthless in the absence of a warhead that could cause mass destruction. With no weapons of mass destruction, how does this constitute a clear and present danger to the US?

And also: What we have here are allegations concerning PLANS, not prototypes, not actual production facilities for, not testing rigs for engines. Plans. Thats all. Nothing else.

lets look futher at the definitive and devastating and astounding proof that tom has dug up:

Kay:" In the chemical and biological weapons area we have confidence that there were at a minimum clandestine on-going research and development activities that were embedded in the Iraqi Intelligence Service. "

Is this direct evidence of 1,2,3,4 or 5? is this empirical material support for 1,2,3,4 or 5? Is this even physical demonstration of the existence of any of the things claimed in 1,2,3,4, or 5?

No. "We have confidence"

No support, proof, evidence. But Confidence. Oh, How charming. How convincing. Lets do give him HUNDREDS of millions more so he can drag this pathetic political charade out even longer.

So by WMD, you meant "confidence of a small clandestine program that 100,000 troops and 6 months in Iraq can't uncover". Okay. Good to know we can define the terms of the RightWing bobble heads here.

So by "Terrorists" you mean no evidence of the allegations made 6-to-9 months ago.

So by "threat to the united states demanding unilateral violent action, followed by indefinite occupation" what you really mean is ??? I'm sorry, I can't even draw enough meaning from this pathetic shit to taunt you with.

It like "occupation and reconstruction paid for by the oil revenues of Iraq" really means 70+ billion of taxpayer money, just for the first year. Complete bull shit.

If ANYONE from the left had THIS gulf between their statements and the actual reality of things, WHAT on earth would YOU be saying? Do ANY of you have ANY integrity?

NONE of the threats that were used to justify this war existed. And yes, I know what we are going to do next. We are going to go into a momy-they-did-it-too argument about Clinton, and the UN, and etc.

Or, if not that, we'll drone on and on with inferences that anyone opposed to this war supports saddam or liked him, or was insensitive to the fact that Saddam was a madman. False Dichotomy. Two wrongs and etc. More bullshit.

Or it will be polls taken in Baghdad given to under 1500 people with no methodology or questions posted PROVING that the Iraqis wanted us to come and take over their entire civilization. Right.

Or it will be some other morally indignant half-insulting argument. Or it will be feces being flung.

Or, I'm sure, at least one bobblehead will point out that Clinton really is all to blame.

The fact is, in the end, the Right wing here was wrong. Entirely. Categorically. None of their so-called facts have borne out to be true. NONE. Instead of any sense of moral indignation at faulty leadership, or any introspection into why certain courses of action were taken, the Right here has instead closed ranks, circled the wagons of falshood, stuck their fingers in their ears, and proceeded to chant "NoNoNoNo".

The sad fact is that not only did you all endorse unjustified killing, which is murder, you refuse to call for an accounting.

Shame on you all. Shame on you. The only difference between mislead believers and jack-booted thugs is a demand for honest and moral leadership, and some will to hold that authority accountable.

Our nation did the unthinkable. We with dishonest reasons started a war that killed well in excess of 10,000 people and the partisans refuse to make war for reckoning.

Davin L.