For the longest time I came here and was very careful about what I said and how I phrased things. The constant parade of "stupid lefties" and "liberal weenies" and "demohacks" and so forth really got to me over time. But what was the worst was the fact that the "2 or 3 jerks" were allowed to go uncorrected, and that, if one didn't like the abuse, it was suggested that one needed to get a sense of humor. ;) ;) ;)

So I started handing it back. With a rapier. It seemed to be the custom, and all my manners got me was repeated kicks in the shins.

If one would have a civil discourse, one must defend civility. One need not defend opinions with which one disagrees, but one must defend the atmosphere in which those opinions are expressed. There are a lot of areas in which my opinions have become altered because of things people have said here. Do you think I would have dared express doubt in this place? I'd have gotten it in the neck.

As to the conservative/liberal ratio, it's actually closer to even than it was in the "Golden Days". Marcia was never a frequent poster anywhere but Space, and I miss her. Betsy's posts could be counted using fingers and toes. I believe she actually left the day she put her oar into the SDAI flame thread I started and I had the nerve to mention her name later. Larry says he's busy. Ed may prefer to be with people who don't correct his rants. I don't know where Phil is, but he's a new grandfather. If I had grandchildren I'd rather spend time with them than here. Dan makes an appearance sometimes; I have wondered if access isn't a problem for him.

If you will look back, and be honest, the conservative rhetoric was very shrill for a very long time. I think it may be the content more than the tone that bothers you. The tone is the same, but the words are all wrong. There wasn't a lot of complaint when the liberals went away for the various reasons we did. Is it really that there are fewer conservatives, or is it that the liberals stopped throwing conservatives a bone only to back off, but started to fight back?

This isn't necessarily a good thing. The liberals used to have manners, even in the face of abuse. I'm genuinely sorry this isn't the case anymore. I'm also sorry that Wayne Gretsky has retired from hockey because he played with skill instead of violence, but I'd rather see the brawls than give up hockey altogether. If one team high-sticks a good player, the next player out of the box from the attacked team is one of their goon squad, an enforcer. That's how the game is played. Start to high-stick, say, Raoul (whose home was unremittingly attacked for months, if you remember), and can you really be surprised if the number of brawls go up?

I also took very very strong exception to being evangelized with new-age garbage. I get evangelized with 19th-century garbage quite frequently in the real world, and that's more than enough. That someone here would use a friend of mine's death as an opportunity to push his religion at me was my last straw. It would have gotten him a busted nose if he had been here. Instead, I yelled at him.

Did he go away? Hey, I've gone away. I come back because I like some of the people here. If he wants to go away, that's up to him. Did I hurt hims widdle feelings? What do you think he did to mine? I just wanted him to shut up.

I'm looking at what you wrote, and I know how you feel. Well, let me correct that: what you have written has been an excellent reflection of the way I felt about this place some three years ago. I wrote some heartfelt posts about what unremitting radicalization does to civil discourse, and was doing to me personally. I was gratified and encouraged when two or three people (including you, if I recall correctly) agreed with me. But after a nod in the general direction of theoretical manners, everything went right back to the way it had been.

It became plain to me that I wasn't going to change anyone's manners by setting a good example. It became likewise plain that, after many attempts, two of them announced, I couldn't stay away unless my computer broke. So I adapted to the atmosphere here. It was my choice. I didn't have to do it. But I am now much more like the people I have argued with here.

Maybe that's part of what the problem is.