Well, Tom, as much as I respect your ability to argue and think out your positions, I don't agree. We are beating a dead horse, but lets go into it again.

Tom B wrote:
"but ninety percent of them have to do with the government staying out of the free economy. If anything, I make money in spite of the government."

Well, first off, if the Gov't really did stay out of the economy (which it NEVER has in any gov't form, but we can go back to lassez-faire for something close), we would have the Depression-Bubble cycle of the early TwenCen late 19 century all over again, Monopolies would rule, and nobody but the Andrew Carnegies would make ANY money while *factory supervisors* lived 3 families to a flat and children labored away.

Did you go to a state College for your degree? Well, you slurped from the trough there... Ever utilize the newest medical treatments? Slurping from gov't funded or at least subsidized research. Maybe you won a scholarship once in your life? Sluring up the Gov't dime. Even at CMU, top of the top, where only the most meritorious students find a thin slot (and these kids are effin bright!) A PRIVATE college, would collapse without Gov't research dollar support.

The military that you want us to wield? Slurp! The roads you drive on? Slurp! The cable you watch? Gov't funded infrastructure! Slurp!

Its easy to make claims about how Gov't should say out of industry and we should not be taxed bleah blah bleah.... But when it comes down to it most aspects of our daily lives have SOME Gov't money in it, and unless you can give a REASONABLE picture beyong "PRIVATIZE!" without a mechanism or supporting models (never worked for air transport, isn't working for rail), don't bother disturbing the electrons to type it.

Tom:
"Can you name one thing that the "system" or the "electorate" did for me that allowed me to make a good living?"

Well, I can't speak for you, but I can speak for me. My pop kicked when I was young and my Mom was no big wage earner (she did damn well though!). My dads social security helped me finish out highschool (which for various reasons I had to PAY FOR even though it was at a public school, long story) and scholarships and a bit of insurance got me through STATE undergrad (I *might* have managed private, but most likely not).

Then, Grants, fellowships and Raman noodles got me through Grad school. Now I'm a fantastically educated Research Programmer at a one of the top research institutions in the world. The kids I teach are top of the top, and my peers are world class. I go to work and I kick ass (mostly MIT ass, as of late... Smirk).

Now, I EARNED all of this with brains and a few doses of very hard work, but the STATE college, Grants, tax-breaks and fellowships made a payoff for my hard work possible. I admit this and I am proud of it, so when I ship of my 1040, it goes out with a great deal of pride and pleasure, DESPITE the Gv't waste.

Tom B:
" I should pay ten times the taxes for the same amenities and government services that most people pay little or nothing for?"

Well, Tom, what are you going to pay if yer making 9,000/year? And EVERYONE pays Social Security, BTW! So what, you pay more... Sorry, I really don't care. ;-)

You are probably just as well off as I am, and I am in pig paradise. "Most" people not paying anything is not true. Between Federal, State, Local and Sales, everyone pays. Everyone. 50 bucks is a huge tax bill when you are barely getting by, 50,000,000 is not that bad when you own 3 jets and an island just off the caymans.

Tom wrote:
"Am I supposed to believe that some of this bloated expansion is not waste? "

No Tom, I really have been trying to get accross to you that I think MOST of the Federal budget is waste, JUST like you. Social programs are really only a SMALL chunk of the budget, and usually the right-wingers come up with an inflated number by including CORPORATE welfare in the "WELFARE" budget.

Tom:
"There are not twice as many people in the nation than there was in 1974."

Hmmm,
http://www.teachervision.com/lesson-plans/lesson-2207.html claims about 200mil in 1970 and we have about 300mil today. Not quite twice, but 50% more. Actully the percentage misleads... 100million more.

Tom: "Face it, the rich and upper middle-classes are carrying almost all the freight" Yep, thats because wethepeople tax the economy. Tom: "If sheer fairness and justice had anything to do with it, everyone would pay almost the same amount of taxes--not same percentage, same amount--as everyone else, regardless of income. But that's not what it's all about, is it?" Tom, my ideal is a flat consumption tax at the cash register. Exempt food and clothing to benefit the poor, and Exampt housing construction to benefit the rich. Then you have tremendous stimulus power... Recession? Drop the tax on durable goods for a month, there goes the Recession! Each pays a tax only on what they consume. No tax on investments. But the idea that Joe Homeless is gonna shimmy up to H&R Block and cut a check for his fair share is a little incorrect, IMHO. If we defined-down the "fair share" tax level down to what Horton Hobo could pay, then we could not even fund a military worthy of fucking OBL up the.... wait, I digress. Tom: " It is inconceivable that, as the Democrats claim, every dollar of the current budget is critical to the existence of this nation" Come on, I am privy to those dark hovels of Democrats, and not a one (with two brain cells to rub together) says that. Try not to strawman the other guy just because you disagree with them... As we both know, there are idiots and morons on all sides of the political battle Saying really STUPID things. I won't hold Robert E. B. or Dan Quayle against you if you don't hold Jesse Jackson and Sharpton (god what a misnomer) against me! ;-) Tom: "and if you subscribe to the "Robin Hood Principle* " as most liberals do, I suppose you think this is exactly how it should be. " Damn, Tom, I would think about flunking you in an intro Logic and Arguments class! Thats a Strawman backflipping down a slippery slope into a bucket of red herring. ;-) But, I know you could not resist. respectfully: Davin L. PS There are also a lot of Hard working honest, smart POOR people. I was born with a really class-A brain... Not the best, but top shelf. I can think and problem solve really well. So well, in fact, it opened a lot of doors for me. Not everyone has that going for them. In America, most of it is hard work and stick-tooit (yayy America!). But not all. Luck and Situation-of-Birth have a lot to contribute. Nurture and Nature have their say as well (as educated people, we CAN'T ignore this!). Not all poor people deserve their plight or have a character flaw that made them poor. More then a few are poor because shit/complexity happens and stuff goes wrong. As a TRUE liberal, I do not say take care of them forever... Instead I say provide a ladder up for those with two good hands to climb and provide basic dignity for those who can't, even if they are free-loaders. Because you CAN'T always tell the feeloader from the down-and-out.