Quite so

Off Topic » in reply to Please don't do this...

Quite so

Robert — 5/30/2006 3:31:16 PM (archived)

I'm appalled when I look at attempts by people in the Creationist or ID camp to entangle science in their beliefs, and wonder what they hell they're thinking. When you take a proposition on to science's turf, you're inviting science to make an unconstrained investigation that may lead to disproof as well as proof; you don't get to dictate the outcome.

But what's really worse in a fundamental way is the prospect of proof. Proof destroys faith by rendering it meaningless. How many brownie points do you get with God for conceding the obvious?

Religion and God are, metaphorically, quantum wave functions. Science, as the archetypical Observer, collapses wave functions. You can only weaken or destroy religion by entangling it with science, no matter what the outcome of the investigation. Let science prove a proposition like Creation and you convert religion to science. Or let science disprove it and it debunks religion. Either way the wave function collapses and religion loses.

Why would anyone of faith ever want to do a thing like that?

The whole thread (103 posts)

Genesis in terms of physics - Johannes - 5/30/2006 3:28:35 AM
- You might want to go to one of the sources that does this - alcaray - 6/3/2006 5:49:26 PM
  - re: Can you suggest a source - Johannes - 6/4/2006 3:37:28 AM
    - Many - alcaray - 6/5/2006 10:40:03 PM
      - re: Thank you, the math concept becomes more vivid with the Hebrew version. - Johannes - 6/6/2006 4:53:13 AM
        
        Try Tolkien's creation from the Silmarillian, just for fun. - alcaray - 6/6/2006 11:30:00 PM
        
        Tolkien's creation myth - Fox - 6/9/2006 1:55:37 AM
        
        re: Silmarillian - Johannes - 6/7/2006 3:45:10 AM
        
        re: Silmarillian - Laurie Street - 6/8/2006 3:37:24 PM
- Observations. - SDAI-Tech1 - 6/1/2006 4:50:19 AM
  - re: Thank you for your input. - Johannes - 6/2/2006 12:23:42 AM
  - A definitional quibble - Robert - 6/1/2006 4:25:20 PM
    - re: A definitional quibble - SDAI-Tech1 - 6/1/2006 10:58:00 PM
      - quibbles and bits - Robert - 6/2/2006 1:35:58 AM
        
        Polarity Versus Binary & Existence & Nonexistence - SDAI-Tech1 - 6/2/2006 6:00:50 AM
- Please don't do this... - Mary Anne - 5/30/2006 1:45:14 PM
  - I don't follow that reasoning - SDF - 5/31/2006 1:32:10 AM
    - You follow the rational way. - Mary Anne - 5/31/2006 2:47:23 AM
      - Nobody's perfect - SDF - 5/31/2006 3:38:27 AM
        
        There's a big difference between institutionalizing a belief system... - Mary Anne - 5/31/2006 3:52:11 AM
        
        There is no god. (n/t) - SDF - 5/31/2006 8:01:02 AM
        
        re: I'm sure you believe and have faith that it is so. (n/t) - Johannes - 6/2/2006 4:29:22 AM
        
        There is man. - Mary Anne - 5/31/2006 12:44:12 PM
        
        She summed it up far more eloquently than I did below. - RNE - 5/31/2006 4:55:41 PM
        
        "Divine imminence" is terminology - SDF - 5/31/2006 5:21:56 PM
        
        ...and btw, it's "immanence"... - Mary Anne - 6/1/2006 5:07:00 PM
        
        Yeah, *people* cause measurable effects. - SDF - 6/1/2006 7:46:04 PM
        
        The people in question would disagree. - Mary Anne - 6/1/2006 10:42:01 PM
        
        They started it. - SDF - 6/2/2006 5:34:52 AM
        
        So you're an "eye-for-an-eye" man... - Mary Anne - 6/2/2006 1:19:51 PM
        
        Yes. - SDF - 6/2/2006 4:10:55 PM
        
        A pound of flesh - Mary Anne - 6/2/2006 8:58:51 PM
        
        I understand both sides - azstrummer - 6/2/2006 12:07:40 AM
        
        I'm not sure we have ever had a culture in which religion *hasn't* been a component. - Mary Anne - 6/2/2006 12:49:39 AM
        
        re: I'm not sure we have ever had a culture in which religion *hasn't* been a component. - azstrummer - 6/2/2006 4:49:20 AM
        
        Sacred - Mary Anne - 6/3/2006 12:56:36 AM
        
        re: Sacred - azstrummer - 6/4/2006 11:07:49 PM
        
        I understand from experience what I mean. - Mary Anne - 5/31/2006 8:28:54 PM
        
        Oh, never mind - RNE - 5/31/2006 7:02:59 PM
        
        Why shouldn't I? They think their beliefs are immutable and the supremacy of their religion is a birthright (n/t) - SDF - 6/1/2006 3:38:22 AM
        
        re: "Divine imminence" is terminology - REB - 5/31/2006 5:41:07 PM
        
        re: "Divine imminence" is terminology - azstrummer - 5/31/2006 11:40:12 PM
        
        re: "Divine imminence" is terminology - REB - 6/1/2006 12:29:41 PM
        
        re: "Divine imminence" is terminology - azstrummer - 6/1/2006 7:00:41 PM
        
        re: "Divine imminence" is terminology - REB - 6/1/2006 8:54:38 PM
        
        Pretty much demonstrates that religion is utterly irrational (n/t) - SDF - 6/1/2006 7:04:08 AM
        
        Imagining something doesn't make it real. (n/t) - SDF - 5/31/2006 1:20:09 PM
        
        Really? - Robert - 5/31/2006 5:51:23 PM
        
        Well, different religions wrote whole books on the subject. - SDF - 6/1/2006 7:26:59 AM
        
        Not being able to imagine something doesn't make it false. - Mary Anne - 5/31/2006 1:31:24 PM
        
        An exercise of faith is required........... - Publius - 5/31/2006 6:03:56 PM
        
        re: I wonder.... - Raoul - 6/1/2006 4:21:28 PM
        
        All that is required is........ - Publius - 6/6/2006 3:28:24 PM
        
        There is a psychological basis for your fundamentalist neighbors' behavior - SDF - 5/31/2006 4:21:11 PM
        
        We don't know that for certain. - REB - 5/31/2006 12:19:14 PM
        
        "We don't know everything yet." - SDF - 5/31/2006 1:05:07 PM
        
        re: "We don't know everything yet." - REB - 5/31/2006 1:18:04 PM
        
        Imagining something doesn't make it real. (n/t) - SDF - 5/31/2006 1:21:52 PM
        
        Not seeing something doesn't mean it is not there. - REB - 5/31/2006 1:28:40 PM
        
        Actually, I think it does. - SDF - 5/31/2006 3:53:41 PM
  - re: Thank you Mary Ann for that wonderful reply. - Johannes - 5/30/2006 6:14:16 PM
    - Religion and truth (or some facsimile thereof) - McFly - 5/31/2006 1:30:56 AM
      - re: Religion and truth (or some facsimile thereof) - Johannes - 5/31/2006 3:36:19 AM
        
        re: Religion and truth (or some facsimile thereof) - azstrummer - 6/1/2006 12:06:13 AM
        
        re: Interesting - Johannes - 6/1/2006 10:44:09 PM
        
        re: Interesting - azstrummer - 6/2/2006 12:12:12 AM
        
        re: Such is life :-) (n/t) - Johannes - 6/2/2006 12:20:26 AM
        
        re: Are you hinting that creativity or creation is absurd? (n/t) - Johannes - 6/1/2006 3:48:40 AM
        
        Oops, Freudian slip there. Absurd = Observed (n/t) - azstrummer - 6/1/2006 7:11:36 PM
        
        Hmmm, yer a wiley one! - McFly - 5/31/2006 5:03:01 PM
        
        re: Faith in science is a good start - Johannes - 6/1/2006 3:35:19 AM
        
        re: Faith in science is a good start - RNE - 6/6/2006 5:32:07 PM
        
        re: Faith in science is a good start - Johannes - 6/7/2006 3:29:48 AM
        
        Faith in Humanity's ability to step back from the edge of the Abyss. - RNE - 6/8/2006 12:39:29 PM
    - The knowable - Robert - 5/30/2006 11:13:51 PM
      - re: Thank you for pointing that out. - Johannes - 5/31/2006 4:07:04 AM
        
        Cosmology - Robert - 5/31/2006 4:52:45 PM
        
        re:The concepts that Leonard Susskind is advocating seem interesting. - Johannes - 6/1/2006 3:24:36 AM
        
        Genesis as metaphor - Robert - 6/1/2006 11:42:02 PM
        
        re: Sounds fair to me - Johannes - 6/2/2006 3:35:06 AM
        
        The problem with Genesis - SDAI-Tech1 - 6/2/2006 12:17:57 AM
        
        But what about Genesis? - Robert - 6/2/2006 2:08:28 AM
        
        re: But what about Genesis? - SDAI-Tech1 - 6/2/2006 4:58:01 AM
        
        re: Yes - Johannes - 6/2/2006 4:21:50 AM
        
        "Stage of development" - azstrummer - 6/2/2006 7:39:55 PM
        
        re: Let me try and understand your view point. - Johannes - 6/3/2006 4:12:42 AM
        
        re: Let me try and understand your view point. - azstrummer - 6/4/2006 11:21:11 PM
        
        re: Thank you for the compliment. - Johannes - 6/5/2006 5:55:46 AM
        
        re: Correction - Johannes - 5/31/2006 4:14:18 AM
      - tiny correction - Robert - 5/30/2006 11:15:37 PM
        
        re: tiny correction - Johannes - 5/31/2006 3:52:46 AM
        
        Yes - Robert - 5/31/2006 4:22:07 PM
        
        re: Thank you. (n/t) - Johannes - 6/1/2006 12:13:56 AM
  - I think along the same lines as Johannes here. - REB - 5/30/2006 5:40:35 PM
    - Poetry - Mary Anne - 5/31/2006 2:20:09 AM
      - re: Poetry - Fox - 5/31/2006 3:04:10 AM
  - Quite so - Robert - 5/30/2006 3:31:16 PM
  - A comment worthy of engraving on Stone. - RNE - 5/30/2006 1:51:38 PM
    - Can't we all just get along? - ljk - 5/30/2006 7:58:18 PM
      - If the leave me be, I'll leave them be. - RNE - 5/31/2006 4:47:09 PM
        
        re: If the leave me be, I'll leave them be. - ljk - 6/1/2006 2:41:45 PM
        
        Evolution in action? African fish could be providing rare example of forming two separate species, Cornell scientists speculate - LJK - 6/1/2006 7:07:49 PM
        
        re: Evolution in action? - RNE - 6/6/2006 5:21:01 PM

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