The elephant in the living room.

Bowser — 4/20/2009 11:42:19 PM (archived)

By now it's clear that the US tortured people. And caused others to be tortured. And it's also clear now that the President not only knew it but participated in planning it. And long after torture was implemented with the President's approval Bush was denying it. Those are both matters of great shame to America, and could not have been done without the backing of those people who defended the lies and the practices by denying their existence.

We had a long debate here on those issues, with folks saying the US didn't torture and the President didn't lie. That insistence went from plausible denial, to implausible denial to flat denial ignoring the facts to just plain ideological blindness.

In the interest of intellectual honesty it is probably in the best interests of those who denied and defended to acknowledge they were wrong. And if they don't acknowledge they were wrong, they have to live with the burden of knowing that we have plumbed the shallows of their credibility, honesty and integrity.

This should never have had to be posted.

Arf

The whole thread (103 posts)

The elephant in the living room. - Bowser - 4/20/2009 11:42:19 PM
- I'll side with TB on this one - E.P. - 4/23/2009 10:46:40 PM
  - re: I'll side with TB on this one - Lindy - 4/25/2009 3:46:22 PM
    - re: I'll side with TB on this one - E.P. - 5/1/2009 9:37:09 PM
- If Everbody's talking about it, then it cannot be 'The elephant in the living room.' - S - 4/22/2009 6:29:45 PM
  - My bad...'didn't scroll down far enough... - S - 4/22/2009 7:07:51 PM
    - re: My bad...'didn't scroll down far enough... - TB - 4/22/2009 8:33:56 PM
      - "the moral issue is a lot more complicated so it's easier for some people to pretend they never work. " - Lindy - 4/23/2009 12:28:12 AM
      - Missing sources - TB - 4/22/2009 8:43:10 PM
  - Or, as Pynchon put it... - S - 4/22/2009 6:53:59 PM
    - Here's one of the right questions... - Lindy - 4/23/2009 12:38:41 AM
      - Try and focus. - TB - 4/23/2009 3:51:55 AM
- re: The elephant in the living room. - Marcia - 4/21/2009 9:52:51 PM
- You know... - SDAI-Tech1 - 4/21/2009 7:17:16 PM
  - PS Re: Animal Love (Pet owners do NOT read - oops that excludes the entire Zone!) - SDAI-Tech1 - 4/22/2009 9:14:39 PM
    - Life 101...seriously - Jody - 4/23/2009 1:33:32 PM
      - re: Life 101...seriously - Marcia - 4/25/2009 10:15:01 PM
    - "The more our society decays the more it turns to pets for pseudo unconditional love and affirmation." - Lindy - 4/23/2009 12:40:34 AM
      - Conflicting messages. - SDAI-Tech1 - 4/23/2009 6:23:48 AM
        
        It is aways about excess - FrankC - 4/23/2009 6:14:43 PM
        
        You got it. Balance ;-) (n/t) - SDAI-Tech1 - 4/24/2009 12:55:18 AM
        
        If it truly is about balance Mr. Spock... - Jody - 4/24/2009 1:58:01 PM
        
        I suggest a compromise - Jody - 4/23/2009 1:24:12 PM
        
        Made of hemp? - SDAI-Tech1 - 4/24/2009 12:58:58 AM
        
        How would that even *work*? (n/t) - TB - 4/23/2009 4:46:27 PM
        
        Well, first you get a rope... - Eri - 4/23/2009 5:20:51 PM
        
        *giggle* (n/t) - Jody - 4/23/2009 10:20:30 PM
    - I love my puppy - FrankC - 4/23/2009 12:19:21 AM
      - He's precious! (n/t) - Eri - 4/23/2009 2:33:53 AM
      - Awwww...FrankC...he is adorable!!! - Jody - 4/23/2009 12:48:53 AM
    - This is so pathetic - Robert - 4/22/2009 11:45:45 PM
      - Well said. For some, dogs, cats and people are merely objects. - Bowser - 4/24/2009 4:35:29 AM
        
        I've talked to veterinarians... - TB - 4/25/2009 5:11:56 AM
        
        bonding outside the species - Robert - 4/24/2009 5:36:16 AM
        
        I certainly understand. - Eri - 4/25/2009 9:09:14 PM
        
        I refrain from reading any more posts on this subject. - Jody - 4/24/2009 2:22:57 PM
        
        Lindy, Jody, Eri...somebody...PLEASE... - SDAI-Tech1 - 4/24/2009 7:02:16 AM
        
        Keep digging that hole - Robert - 4/24/2009 4:19:36 PM
        
        It would be nice... - SDAI-Tech1 - 4/24/2009 9:18:40 PM
        
        Sorry Tech1 but it's obvious that your envious of the affection some animals command. (n/t) - RobVG - 4/26/2009 10:45:10 PM
        
        ;-) (n/t) - SDAI-Tech1 - 4/26/2009 11:33:55 PM
        
        Give it up Tech1 - Lindy - 4/26/2009 5:53:44 AM
        
        I miscalculated. - SDAI-Tech1 - 4/26/2009 8:56:48 AM
        
        No shit! - Eri - 4/26/2009 6:23:51 PM
        
        On the other hand... - TB - 4/26/2009 6:02:44 PM
        
        "I am often careless with human emotions" - Lindy - 4/26/2009 3:26:38 PM
        
        Yes you did... - Jody - 4/26/2009 1:48:08 PM
        
        Chart clarified - SDAI-Tech1 - 4/26/2009 9:23:29 AM
        
        Journey to the center of the Earth - Robert - 4/24/2009 10:03:04 PM
    - SDAI needs to go to the vet to be fixed. - Eri - 4/22/2009 10:09:11 PM
      - Now now...no need for that Eri - Jody - 4/22/2009 11:09:19 PM
        
        I love you too Jody. ;-) (n/t) - SDAI-Tech1 - 4/23/2009 4:51:12 AM
        
        Heh.... - Jody - 4/23/2009 10:21:41 PM
        
        I'm glad I wasn't drinking coffee when I read that! I'd have needeed a new keyboard. (n/t) - Eri - 4/23/2009 2:36:18 AM
  - You're one sick bastard (n/t) - Eri - 4/22/2009 3:55:07 PM
  - I am sorry SDAI said that to you Bowser. (n/t) - Jody - 4/22/2009 2:22:11 PM
    - As a woman.... - Lindy - 4/22/2009 5:13:38 PM
      - SDAI will never apologize. He's too sure of his own superiority. - Eri - 4/22/2009 7:04:17 PM
    - No harm, no foul. I don't read him. (n/t) - Bowser - 4/22/2009 2:42:29 PM
  - re: You know... - FrankC - 4/21/2009 8:48:19 PM
    - And what's more... - SDAI-Tech1 - 4/21/2009 10:58:56 PM
  - You should have left the dog out of it. (n/t) - TB - 4/21/2009 8:17:20 PM
    - Agreed - REB - 4/22/2009 1:18:40 PM
      - Me, too. - Jody - 4/22/2009 2:20:38 PM
        
        3 things you don't mess with in Texas... - REB - 4/22/2009 2:35:44 PM
        
        You BETTER put the wife first! - Eri - 4/22/2009 3:56:44 PM
        
        But in Texas... - TB - 4/22/2009 8:12:54 PM
        
        True but she has to go to the head of the line. (n/t) - Eri - 4/22/2009 10:10:04 PM
    - Nah. - SDAi-Tech1 - 4/21/2009 11:02:37 PM
- More like a big, smelly fish - S - 4/21/2009 5:54:20 PM
- Cheney says torture's no big deal - we learned a few things! - z - 4/21/2009 4:24:33 PM
  - Well, at least one - S - 4/21/2009 5:45:28 PM
- I guess there really was an Axis of Evil after all. - ER - 4/21/2009 10:36:45 AM
- More of a red herring than an elephant. - TB - 4/21/2009 6:43:36 AM
  - "- - - live with the burden of knowing that we have plumbed the shallows of their credibility, honesty and integrity." (n/t) - Bowser - 4/21/2009 6:52:27 PM
  - Distraction or not....it's important to our Zoners Tom... (n/t) - Jody - 4/21/2009 3:13:48 PM
    - My turn... - Jody - 4/21/2009 9:17:17 PM
      - I don't have a porch. Sniff. (n/t) - Eri - 4/22/2009 3:25:04 AM
        
        Stoop? :) (n/t) - Jody - 4/22/2009 6:14:21 PM
        
        re: Stoop? :) - Eri - 4/22/2009 7:05:16 PM
        
        To the moon Alice!!!;) (n/t) - Jody - 4/22/2009 7:08:52 PM
        
        Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars... (n/t) - Eri - 4/22/2009 10:11:13 PM
      - re: My turn... - FrankC - 4/21/2009 10:16:12 PM
      - "We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." - attributed to Churchill - TB - 4/21/2009 10:13:24 PM
        
        Mark Thiessen was Bush's speechwriter - Lindy - 4/22/2009 12:23:46 AM
        
        More on lives saved - TB - 4/21/2009 11:57:54 PM
        
        Still more - TB - 4/22/2009 3:37:14 AM
        
        Why are you knocking yourself out? - SDAI-Tech1 - 4/22/2009 5:45:54 AM
        
        re: Why are you knocking yourself out? - TB - 4/22/2009 5:51:42 AM
        
        The hard choice - TB - 4/22/2009 12:07:37 AM
        
        As has been demonstrated, the credibility of your sources is highly questionable. - Bowser - 4/22/2009 12:05:16 AM
        
        Evasive action - TB - 4/22/2009 12:09:04 AM
        
        And not to put too fine a point on it... - TB - 4/22/2009 12:14:16 AM
        
        The US tortured and Bush lied. And you deny it. Except to say it worked. - Bowser - 4/22/2009 2:31:58 AM
        
        I assume others got the point. (n/t) - TB - 4/22/2009 3:29:45 AM
        
        Sadly, TB, I think everyone got exactly that point. (n/t) - Bowser - 4/22/2009 4:08:59 AM
        
        The only point I have gleaned from this thread was that this seems to be personal with you Bowser. - Jody - 4/22/2009 1:55:24 PM
        
        Wasn't rhetorical, wasn't directed at TB alone. - Bowser - 4/22/2009 5:29:20 PM
        
        Well.... - Jody - 4/23/2009 2:14:12 AM
  - re: More of a red herring than an elephant. (you should be ashamed of yourself Tom) - Lindy - 4/21/2009 2:37:44 PM
  - It's not Bush Derangement, - ER - 4/21/2009 10:22:55 AM
    - re: Bush Derangement - TB - 4/21/2009 5:56:27 PM
      - "There was a reason this release happened now" - Lindy - 4/21/2009 11:54:28 PM

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The whole thread (103 posts)