Okay, all rigor in argumentntation aside for now.

"Think about it, if you were president and had the opportunity to remove Saddam and ensure the safety of the American people and prevent the affects of another expansionist move by Iraq, would you take it? "

Rob, I deeply hate saddam and I really want to see the Iraqi people out from under his boot heel, and the awful sactions and to see the world free from that madman.

For months I did not take a position on the Iraqi war. My initial drive was to be against it just because Bush was for it and I can't think of more than 2 policies that i have ever agreed with Bush on. And, as you have seen elsewhere, I think the man is a genius among flatworms, and not much else.

But that is no reason to be against it, So I read, I tought, I debated and I discussed. It was all very hard to do after Sept. 11, and it was all very hard to do knowing a thing or two about BioChemistry and the potentials of Bio Warfare. I must admit the fear and anger factors had to be confronted more than once.

The turning point, for me as for you, was Powells address to the UN. I stopped work and listned to it with my office door shut. I read the text. In the end I was left with a different conclusion: Bullshit. I have not been able to convince myself otherwise yet. While I will grant Bio/Chem WMD, I see no present danger and no international consensus to enforce previous UN resolutions. I see, in short, no justification for this war.

I understand how painful this can be for principled people who don't take war lightly (pro or con!). Despite my adversarial tone in these debates, I have respect for anyone who thinks things through and takes a stance. This isn't chess for me, Rob, this is how I have chosen to oppose a war I see as unjustified. If I can convince literate and intelligent people to at least listen to the other point of view and by doing so reflect and justify their own view, I think I have done a better job standing up for my beliefs than attending 100 dinky and pointless (or, pointless now that I have a fiance... teehee) peace marches. (as you can see, I have low opinion of such gatherings)

"Think about it, if you were president and had the opportunity to remove Saddam and ensure the safety of the American people and prevent the affects of another expansionist move by Iraq, would you take it? "

Rob, I think I would if I had less integrity and was less bound by reason. There are many people I want to have gone in this world, and probably they should be gone. But, that does not make unilateral unjustified war a reasonable option. Its still murder.

When i was young, I let a friend who had been abandoned by his parents live in my house until he was old enough to rent a place on his own. I used some of MY OWN money to feed him and keep him warm that winter. I encouraged him and helped him try to get some band scholarships for a local college.

Later, he became a druggie. He came back to my house and stole everything I owned, tried to steal the car I inherited from my dad, and took my widowed mothers wedding silver. Pissed on the walls of my house.

I found out he did it, but the cops didn't care, wouldn't do anything about it. I saw him hundreds of times around my home town in theyears that followed. He deserved a rough justice by most lines of thinking.... I was young enough and skilled at fighting (Brown Belt) to dispense that justice, and angry enough.

But it would have been wrong to do that. If I had been less preincipled, I would have. If I had subjected my actions to less reason, I would have. If I had been a coward, I would have beaten him into the ground.

My point with this story is that sometimes the use of violence can feel like the right thing to do, but actually be the lazy, unreasonable and unprincipled thing to do. Thats how I look at the bush admin right now.