If Bush can not find a political selling point for this war, it will be viewed as an illegitimate and unjustified war. Globally, that will cast us in the role of the Soviets and the Nazis and the very tyranny we are going to war against(True or false, thats what will be seen). This will have a lasting and negative effect on our foreign policy and how other nations deal with us- How many Big Deals are Boeing or other American companies going to loose becuase foreign governments don't want to be seen doing business with us?

Saddam is scum, and for the right reasons and in the right global context, I will support (gladly) a war with Iraq to remove him.... Bush has failed to provide these reasons and he damn sure has put us in a situation where, if we go to war, we will damage our country severely.

Yes, of course we will stomp the Iraqi army. Yes, of course we will win. Yes, I am sure some Iraqis will welcome us as heroes. But every casualty we inflict will be seen on the same level, by the world, as a dead Jew in a concentration camp or A dead Russian Serf on the plains of Stalinist Russia, or a dead british soldier at Dunkirk. If we can't change world opinion, and go to war, thats how this will be written about in the history books of 4/5ths the worlds population. That is serious business for our nation. Just ask an older german

Russia lost the cold war, at least in part, because it failed to be seen as the 'right' side of the dichotomy. We are about to put on the mantle of the 'great satan' that our terrorist foes have been trying to force on us- and the funny thing is, in the end, we will do it willingly.

Additionally, if we defy international consensus and invade, then what cudgel do we have to wield against China stomping Taiwan back into the stone age? Every country will be free to act on its own without regard to the international community. We will sacrifice the moral highground that we used so effectively in the war against the Soviets.

This is the REAL damage to our national integrity. Bush, like many (but not all) conservatives is very much against the concept of the UN- Me, I could take it or leave it- I am more concerned about international consensus than the UN. Many conservatives seem to be invigorated in their support of the war BECAUSE the UN is against it. Which party has continually attacked the UN over the years and blocked our payment of dues? The UN is an organ of power that the US can, and has, wielded against its enemies. By isolating ourselves from it, we have shot ourselves in the foot.

Now, here is whats going to happen after me saying this here. Someone will construct a straw man of my arguments and burn it in the street. Someone else will draw the red herring. Another party will throw out a false implication on my argument and A fourth person will get personal and call me arrogant because they simply don't like what I have to say but are too lazy to come up with reasons why I am wrong.

Thats the ONLY sad thing about this otherwise fantastic board. Matters involving physical objects are treated (rightly!) as discreet things about which statements of facts can be made and evaluated. Political arguments degenerate into unadulterated crap discourse technique and thinly veiled subjective evaluations of other peoples character. I intend to make my contribution to this community by not allowing this to float.

Davin L.