re: You seem to be overlooking...

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re: You seem to be overlooking...

McFly — 1/10/2004 11:08:03 PM (archived)

but let us not forget that it was the Nazis who first engaged in pre-emption

And it was--in hindsight, as you point out--a tragedy of immense proportions to allow them to fire the first shot. Had it been made plain to Hitler that his plans would not come to fruition under any circumstances, the war may have remained phony. To sit back and allow a demented dictator to get in the first shot, when by taking action one could have prevented it, is not necessarily a sign of elightenment, I wouldn't think.

Civilized nations do not start wars

Conventional wisdom, yes, but again as you point out, maybe we should be free to question any such beleif. Maybe, in certain situations, civilized nations do start wars. Am I completely comfortable with the concept? No, but my level of comfort should not prevent the issue from being examined.

The whole thread (78 posts)

Think Tank: U.S. Overstated Iraqi Threat - Donald - 1/9/2004 3:31:14 AM
- re: U.S. Overstated Iraqi Threat - Tom Brosz - 1/9/2004 7:57:34 PM
  - Clinton and Iraq - S - 1/9/2004 8:49:11 PM
    - Does that 'sacred right' trump our national safety? - ebnelson - 1/13/2004 1:47:29 PM
      - It certainly doesn't threaten it - S - 1/13/2004 9:43:31 PM
        
        Ah. Mossad again. - Tom Brosz - 1/14/2004 5:02:40 AM
    - Hello 911 - Mark Eby - 1/10/2004 4:47:07 AM
      - re: Hello 911 - Tom Brosz - 1/10/2004 9:13:41 PM
        
        As Guilty As Davin Tom - Mark Eby - 1/11/2004 9:45:35 PM
      - Great jingoistic propaganda! - Davin L. - 1/10/2004 6:29:19 PM
        
        YGTBK - ebnelson - 1/13/2004 1:48:43 PM
    - P.S. - Tom Brosz - 1/9/2004 9:11:28 PM
    - "Self-determination?" Are you serious?? - Tom Brosz - 1/9/2004 9:04:45 PM
      - re: And are you serious? - Raoul - 1/9/2004 9:53:18 PM
        
        You wrote: "International law doesn't care what's going on inside a country, as long as it doesn't interfere with other countries." My anwswer: Then International Law in its current form is immoral a… - David F Mayer - 1/11/2004 3:26:12 PM
        
        So you don't believe in national sovereignty? - Mary Anne - 1/11/2004 5:49:44 PM
        
        Yes, I really like being lectured on the cruelty of capital punishment by such gentle countries as Germany, which has always treated all minorities with respect. (n/t) - David F Mayer - 1/11/2004 5:56:30 PM
        
        re: Send some time with them, it helps - Raoul - 1/11/2004 7:09:26 PM
        
        60 years ago? How about telling that to those leftists who talk like I personally wiped out the Indians with smallpox? (n/t) - Tom Brosz - 1/11/2004 8:48:55 PM
        
        re: I'm a leftist but do I talk like that? - Raoul - 1/11/2004 10:26:59 PM
        
        re: I'm a leftist but do I talk like that? - Tom Brosz - 1/12/2004 2:15:42 AM
        
        There are a lot of people that like tunafish, too - Davin L. - 1/12/2004 4:18:38 AM
        
        Real leftists don't eat tuna - Tom Brosz - 1/12/2004 5:54:38 AM
        
        but your whole leftist thing is, um, a red herring - Davin L. - 1/12/2004 6:37:08 AM
        
        Uh...please note the subject line right under this one. (n/t) - Tom Brosz - 1/12/2004 7:26:09 AM
        
        I see, so you think Mary Anne is 'that leftist'? - Davin L. - 1/12/2004 4:03:23 PM
        
        See you at Flame, jackass (n/t) - Mary Anne - 1/12/2004 3:05:49 PM
        
        I'm sure the Germans likewise appreciate Americans scolding them about genocide, since we have an outstanding background with our Native nations. - Mary Anne - 1/11/2004 6:17:09 PM
        
        re: International law is IN-TER-NA-TIO-NAL ! - Raoul - 1/11/2004 3:46:39 PM
        
        Bullshit. The International was created by despots for the purpose of preserving their tyrannies from interference. - David F Mayer - 1/11/2004 5:54:25 PM
        
        re: You can't help your case by being rude - Raoul - 1/11/2004 7:21:59 PM
        
        My apology for using expletives. They don't help my case. - David F Mayer - 1/11/2004 11:10:26 PM
        
        So why did NATO bombard Eastern Europe? (n/t) - Tom Brosz - 1/10/2004 12:29:00 AM
        
        re: NATO is not UN - Raoul - 1/10/2004 10:44:42 AM
        
        re: And are you serious? - McFly - 1/9/2004 10:29:38 PM
        
        re: Not Pacifism, but Humiliation - Raoul - 1/10/2004 10:54:29 AM
        
        You seem to be overlooking... - S - 1/9/2004 11:33:46 PM
        
        Speaking of perspective... - Fox - 1/11/2004 5:48:00 AM
        
        re: You seem to be overlooking... - McFly - 1/10/2004 11:08:03 PM
        
        Footnote -- Jewish boycott of German goods - S - 1/10/2004 9:02:48 PM
        
        Sehr interessant - vielen Dank! - Fox - 1/10/2004 11:49:53 PM
        
        re: Footnote -- Jewish boycott of German goods - McFly - 1/10/2004 11:32:00 PM
        
        Pacifism, aggression and forgiveness - Mary Anne - 1/11/2004 6:13:19 PM
        
        re: Pacifism, aggression and forgiveness - McFly - 1/12/2004 1:42:38 AM
        
        re: Pacifism, aggression and forgiveness - Tom Brosz - 1/11/2004 9:04:05 PM
        
        Tell it to Martin Luther King. - Mary Anne - 1/11/2004 9:08:39 PM
        
        re: Tell it to Martin Luther King. - Tom Brosz - 1/11/2004 9:22:12 PM
        
        So let me get this straight: you think Hitler's rise to power was a *good* thing because he saved Western Europe from Stalin? - Mary Anne - 1/11/2004 9:37:41 PM
        
        re: get this straight - Tom Brosz - 1/12/2004 2:05:40 AM
        
        If you want your children to live in a world where ... - Mary Anne - 1/12/2004 12:08:00 PM
        
        Not "preferred." What works. They aren't always the same thing. - Tom Brosz - 1/12/2004 10:27:52 PM
        
        There's a real difference between the world as we'd like it to be and the world as it is - Larry J - 1/12/2004 6:59:45 PM
        
        re:write There's a real difference . . . - Mary Anne - 1/13/2004 3:36:01 PM
        
        Tom will choke if you stuff any more words into his mouth! How the heck did you draw that out of his post? (n/t) - McFly - 1/12/2004 1:27:20 AM
        
        And I quote: - Mary Anne - 1/12/2004 12:03:32 PM
        
        You've stretched this one past the breaking point, MA...that's not like you (n/t) - McFly - 1/12/2004 2:27:04 PM
        
        Hanging out here has had a very bad effect on me. - Mary Anne - 1/12/2004 2:51:40 PM
        
        ohh noo - Betsy - 1/13/2004 3:27:16 AM
        
        I know what you mean - Tom Brosz - 1/13/2004 12:49:00 AM
        
        Impersonal and polite - SDAI-Tech1 - 1/12/2004 4:19:54 PM
        
        And you've got to admit that the use of the words "self-determination" in any reference to Saddam's Iraq is a total absurdity. (n/t) - McFly - 1/9/2004 10:35:23 PM
        
        OK - then call it by its other name: "national sovereignty" - Fox - 1/11/2004 5:52:02 AM
        
        Nations have no rights: only people have rights (n/t) - David F Mayer - 1/11/2004 3:29:59 PM
        
        re: Certainly Not! - Raoul - 1/11/2004 7:33:56 PM
        
        The idea that states have "rights" is one thing that separates European thinking from American. (n/t) - Tom Brosz - 1/11/2004 9:09:26 PM
        
        re: Examples and Thomas Jefferson - Raoul - 1/11/2004 10:37:34 PM
        
        re: Thomas Jefferson - Fox - 1/12/2004 1:30:51 AM
        
        And by the way, Jefferson wasn't all that consistent either. - Tom Brosz - 1/12/2004 2:25:48 AM
        
        And how about Abraham Lincoln? (n/t) - Tom Brosz - 1/12/2004 2:20:06 AM
        
        re: 2003-2004 isn't 1990-1991 (n/t) - Raoul - 1/10/2004 10:56:24 AM
- Powell on the the 'Think Tank' and other peanut gallery spectators: - ebnelson - 1/9/2004 1:16:39 PM
- re: Think Tank - Tom Brosz - 1/9/2004 4:31:43 AM
  - the Bush administration clearly stated it was an imminent threat - Greg - 1/9/2004 1:38:39 PM
    - That's precisely the point - Donald - 1/9/2004 3:34:20 PM
  - re: Think Tank - Donald - 1/9/2004 5:03:40 AM
  - Ouch. Report is 111 pages long. - Tom Brosz - 1/9/2004 4:41:36 AM
- Meanwhile: US withdraws Iraq weapons team - Donald - 1/9/2004 3:51:00 AM
  - Powell Admits No Al Qaeda-Iraq Links - Donald - 1/9/2004 4:07:08 AM

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